17wks, bf, failure to thrive - 'Give him solids' ?

[Pesha]

Its me again

I know I wasnt going to get him weighed but with the paed appt I have still been going to give them an accurate picture of his weight, assuming that the hvs would leave me alone as something is being done. I am only going every 2 weeks though.

Ds2 is now 5.2kg so well into the blue at the bottom of the chart (his length is around the 50th line although I know that's never very accurate). HV is going to try and bring my paed appt forwards as its not till 20th sept.

And as he is now 17 weeks today she wants me to try and give him solids. I told her that I thought solids contain less calories and fat than breastmilk but would fill him up more, so he would feed less and it wouldnt help at all. She said that wasn't always the case and it seems like he's not getting enough calories atm. She suggested giving him just a little bit of something after a feed, hardly anything just a taste really she said. Well if it is only 'just a taste' then what's the point in that anyway?

I weaned my other 2 at this age but really wanted to wait till 6 months this time and try BLW. I thought solids at 17 weeks was against recommendations and a Bad Thing. Is it necessary in these circumstances though? Could it help? And if not then how can I argue my case to the hv in 2 weeks time? Or shall I just tell her I tried him but he wouldnt take it?

btw, tori, i agree everyone is entitled to their own opinions. however, when that opinion is not grounded in evidence-based information then others have the right to flag it up. it is not about bullying or getting at anyone.

Pot and Kettle, Tori? Attacking Tiktok on the bfing threads is unlikely to win you any friends or persuade people that you know what you are talking about.

It is precisely because of health professionals like you that bf rates in this country are so poor. Your knowledge and understanding of the bf process and the bf relationship between mum and baby is minimal, yet when you are challenged by someone who is trained and who does know what they are talking about you resort to pathetic accusations.

I have no qualifications in bf yet I know that 90% of what you have written here is, at best, misguided and at worse, down right ignorant. It is very wrong of you to cite your 'professional' experience as a way of making people think you know what you are talking about. Too many first time (and susequent) mums are given this nonsense that you have written here. I was, which I why I know it is rubbish. I ff my first 2 dcs because I was given the type of information you are giving here. Dc3 is bf, mainly thanks to tiktok and also several others on here who have educated themselves in bfing in a way that you patently haven't.

Calling mums who choose a different style of parenting to you 'crazy' shows you to be narrow minded and arrogant. Not really the way to endear yourself to the masses or show yourself to have any kind of empathy with others' issues.

I am very glad that I (hopefully) have never come across you in your professional capacity.

tori, I plead 'not guilty' to being uncivil, and definitely 'not guilty' to 'bullying' someone off a thread....the person I directed my comments to was deliberately resurrecting a thread that had died, in an unhelpful way. And she didn't go away anyway!

The reason you are cross about my comments to you is that they reach you in a sensitive place (which is why I have tried to be polite to you). That 'place' is your professionalism, and from where you do your best to help and support mothers. I have pointed out to you that you don't know enough about breastfeeding to be dogmatic about anything to do with it - as your questions elsewhere about it show. There is nothing wrong with asking questions about bf, and after all, this is part of what mumsnet is for! But in your case they are very revealing.

You say mothers who carry their babies a lot are 'crazy' and you say (on the basis of no evidence whatsoever) that this makes clingy children. Kiskidee has already challenged some of the other stuff you have come out with.

I can be as 'uncivil' as the next person when I want to, but so far, with you I have not. You have clearly been misled into thinking that whatever a HV or midwife tells you is correct. It isn't. Not your fault, but not having an open mind probably is

my dd1 was always on lowest centile & was bottle fed from 8 weeks due to difficulties, she is now 6 and tallest in class although still really slim ( lucky her). dd2 bf till 10 months and also on same centile but this time HV recognised that I have petite kids & leaves me alone. dd2 is almost 2 and just over 10Kg but normal size and as bright as anything. I thought HVs were supposed to be ammending growth charts for BF babies but when i asked about this they knew nothing about it. recently I was worried how little my dd2 was eating, HV said if she was alert, active and running around she was getting enough nutrition. Now we are in the terrible two's I am considering her words and think maybe if i dont feed her she will become lethargic, still and quiet - not all bad then! joke

i'm a little worried by the "tone" of the hv who has suggested early weaning. my adice would be to take some time out with you and your baby, and rest and allow your babe to feed as much and as often as you like- this will increase milk supply. try your babe on solids by all means -if you feel babe is ready- and if your baby is unable to take solids, ie baby rice and b/milk, then stop trying, and leave it for a while. it shouldn't be neccessary to suppliment babes b/milk, with formula, but if you feel happier doing that, then do- but sometimes babies do "prefer" the ease of a bottle, and will start to reject breast, and you may find yourself in the situation on having to express b/milk , to give in a bottle. don't get het up, don't start doubting yourself- if your babe is happy, putting on a small but regular amount of wieght and is well hydrated, and lively, then continue as you are. you can also see another h.v if oyu want, or contact your local nct, who will have a breastfeeding advisor who can check latching on etc, to ensure technique is not letting you down, you may have breastfeeding supporters in your area who can advise with b/feeding and weaning. but above all, don't be bullied into giving up b/feeding if you feel you want to continue. good luck x

I have to add a message of support for Tictok and Kiskidee. I have commented on my own experiences and been corrected by Ticktok and Kiskidee in my time on MN. I never felt bullied and have learnt from their advice. I may not agree with everything they/everyone says to me here but there are certain people you have to admit (eventually!) are more knowledgeable in certain areas.

I regularly recommend others bump their posts for both these Ladies to respond to and I now suggest Tori that you read some of their past posts. You may learn something.

Never be afraid to admit you are wrong/misguided/poorly informed. As a new Mum I certainly was.

Pesha - hope you are doing OK. How is LO? Any luck with getting an earlier appiontment?

tori, what on earth is it that you do for a living? i am absolutely fascinated to find out.

aha, i remember... weren't you the theatre nurse who said you'd never had a baby in for an abdo op because of early weaning. case closed.

Ok trained as an RN (adult) 2000. Joined RAF. worked on orthopaedics for 18mths. Posted to Cyprus. Worked in military hospital handling casualties from Iraq and all other medical specialities including mental health patients. 1 ward for all. Orthopaedics, General surgery, Max Fax ,Ent, Gyneacology, A and E,including mental health admissions. Also worked on the peadiatric ward there doing clinics, first baby checks etc as there were no HV's. Hieghts, weights, centiles etc under the supervision of the peadiatrician as obviously I am not an RSCN. Also childrens allergies, enuresis, FTT, SN (Downs syndrome and Aspergers)
Posted back to Uk into operating theatres worked in General surgery, Gyneacology and day surgery occasionally. Left the RAF as hubby Army and could not co-locate. Moved to Dorset, found out I was pregnant with dd and started work at local hospital in theatres. General surgery including laparoscopic and major bowel, rotation to orthopeadics surgery trauma surgery of various limbs. Platings, nailings etc. went on mat leave. came back to work but missed seeing dd as left at 7am and didn't get back until 1745. DD in bed by 7pm. Trained as a childminder. Now have 4 children under 5. " of the children have had problems in areas of development and fortunately have improved since I have been looking after them. Both previously with the same childminder.

do you know, it's funny, that's written in such a way as a layman wouldn't have a clue what you were on about. i've had that problem with medically-trained people before.

tiktok's right, it's not on to play up your professional qualifications while just repeating the same old rubbish that an HV told you. you've evidently not done bfing training, sensitivity training (i'm referring to your 'crazy' from earlier) and you're not for sticking to the WHO or Dept of Health guidelines on weaning because you didn't see a doctor write 'early weaning related' on any of your patients' notes. i'm pulling a big face about that.

fair enough, say what you like as an individual, although be prepared to back it up with solid data without bringing bullying into it, but the professional stuff is, well, unprofessional imo.

Am I right in concluding from your last post that you have absolutely NO breastfeeding training and not even any qualifications in children's nursing?

I waas feeling guilty about my outburst yesterday but sod it. Not anymore.

How DARE you try to offer bfing advice under the guise of being a professional when you have less knowledge and experience than many of the bfing mothers on here.

Which part of your work experiences makes you think you are in a position to criticise the advice tiktok gives when she trained for 2 years and continually updates her training? I have never seen tiktok be anything less than supportive and empathetic to mothers. If she does get a bit short then it's with people like you who cite their 'professional training' then give bad advice. She has beeen far more courteous to you than many people would have been, considering what you have said to her.

By all means, use your experience as a parent to share your views but do NOT EVER try to give your 'medical' opinion unless it's in the area you were trained in.

A bit harsh there Olihan. Remember Tori's motive for posting her advice was to try and help the OP.
I think some perspective is needed.

Bambirator, go back and read Tori's 1st post to Pesha. That in no way sounded like she was only trying to give advice.
Comments like 'If yes to that and ds still is not getting enough then surely his health is more important than your pride in the ability to breast feed.'
and 'if he takes another 4oz it is clear you haven't got enough supply,' are bloody rude, demoralising and in some cases could be enough to make a mother stop b/f her baby uneccessarily

Magnolia I don't think she was trying to be rude. My point is her motive in posting was to help the OP.
The reaction to her is way over the top. She has posted to try and help. Her information may be wrong but that doesn't warrant this angry reaction.

Sorry but I don't think telling someone that they probably don't have enough milk and they are puting their pride above the health of their child is in anyway helping

BAbmi, I understand Olihan's reaction as she is a mother who was twice misled by misguided health professionals who undoubtedly were under the impression that they were giving good advice.

Anger is part of the grieving process - yes, women grieve over the loss of a bf experience.

It seems to me that her anger has intensified because Tori doesn't seem to realise (or acknowledge, possibly) that her medical training does not qualify her to give advice on breastfeeding and weaning.

Yes, Olihan's anger is not directed at the individuals who gave her poor advice, but on an open forum such as this, Tori has set herself up as a representative of those HCPs and has gotten in the firing line. This is one of the positives and negatives of participating in a forum such as this.

The best thing to do sometimes when emotions are becoming intense is to step away from a discussion and reflect on why it may have caused upset and discord. Usually the answer, I've found, is within my own experiences. Then you can move on and put this and other experiences into a new perspective.

as another aside, this thread and another (linked below by incognitoHV) made me go search for some info and here is what i found: HV's and weight charts

breastfeeding knowledge among HCPs

i was hoping to look for other things but i had a toddler in my lap more interested in 'in the night garden'.

Bampiraptor, I beg to differ.

These comments:

'I can only speak from experience and working with children in paediatric clinics who FTT'

'PS piffle what a load of piffle from a healthcare professional. How do you think under weight babies were brought on before supplements were invented?'

'Sorry ladies but I think there is lots of MAD advice going on.'

'There always exceptions to a rule, but as we used to do paediatric health reviews for children of all ages I can safely say I have seen a far wider range unless you happen to be in a similar profession.'

are in no way helpful or supportive.

The impression she is giving is that she is trained, knowledgable and experienced in bfing matters when she patently isn't.

Kiskidee, tiktok, Aitch and magnolia have all cited other examples.

I am all for people giving advice and helping others but to do it under the false implication that you are a 'professional' is downright wrong. Especially on a bfing thread where the OP is already being given duff advice.

I agree that tori is interested in helping. I have made that point at least twice. I think people have shown irritation at her dogmatic (eg if the baby takes more from a bottle then the mother doesn't have enough milk) comments , plus the unhelpful and judgemental assertions on parenting style (the 'tree hugger' and 'crazy' stuff)...apparently backed up by some highly questionable stuff from midwives and HVs she's been in touch with, and her nursing experiece.

She doesn't deserve anger, I'm with you there - but when people have been let down in their own recent experience by professionals, then maybe they are showing some of the fall-out at Tori.

Thank you for the support Olihan You're right - it pushes my buttons when someone uses their professional background to back up their advice, and yet gets it all wrong!

Tori, your CV is impressive, and you have tons of experience across different disciplines, but not one bit of it justifies any of the dogmatic stuff about parenting and feeding you have posted here. Just be open-minded about this, and less sensitive, and all will be well

Okay, kiski and tiktok, put your amateur psycologist hats away . You are right, both of you. I admit it . Those last two posts were typed in what dh calls my 'fishwife voice' because tori's attitude, advice and general tone of her posts put my back up.

I am angry and very sad about my bfing experiences, especially as I have succeeded with dc3 and now know that I could have done it with my older 2 as well, had I been given better advice.

The only reason I succeeded this time was MN, pure and simple. I started threads when things weren't going well and spent hours reading through the archives. Other peoples' experiences were invaluable but more so was the expert advice I received. If I'd read and taken to heart Tori's 'professional' advice then I wouldn't be bfing 7.5 months on as I had many of the issues she mentions here and 'solves' with top ups.

I do not doubt her intention to help, but she should be making it clear she is only helping as a mother, not as a HCP.

Aw, Oli......: ( I'm really glad the bf is going well this time round.

Tori you are a breath of fresh air on these boards.Someone who is sensible and has common sense. I get them impression that some would rather a baby and mother to suffer than they gave up breastfeeding, alot of the information is probably misleading anyway.

oh don't be so silly, christy.

Christy - I am baffled

Where has Tori shown common sense? When she told someone her parenting style was 'crazy'? When she showed her misunderstandings of how breastfeeding worked? When she told someone it was clear she didn't have enough milk (on totally spurious grounds, I might add!)?

Breath of fresh air??

Examples please....maybe I am missing something

Oh, and Christy....where does anyone here give the impression they would prefer a mother and her baby to suffer?