4 day old bf baby- why is this so hard :((((((((

[needaplan]

Firstly thank you for even reading this.

I have a 4 day old dd who I'm trying to bf. I didn't succeed with dd1 who never latched on properly. With help from the mw's, dd2 latched on well (well, she seems to- opens mouth fairly wide, sucks, seems to swallow well, stays on for 15-25 mins) though my nipples are sore so I'm losing confidence with this now. For the 1st 3 days she fed around every 3-4 hrs (weighed 6lb 13oz at birth). She has been hard to settle at night though sleeps well in the day. Last night was horrendous-she had a pretty good feed at 10.30 ish last night and then wouldn't sleep or feed (was screaming) until gone 5am. She eventually pood and had a very brief feed before falling asleep. She has hardly been awake since.

I am worried about her losing too much weight and have stupidly weighed her myself (we have baby scales). She has lost 10oz. She is a bit jaundiced too.

I am just confused- what shall i do? Even though I thought she was feeding well, I can;t really tell if she has wet nappies- they don't seem wet at all. The poo in the night was very dark greenish and loosish (I think that's ok).

I spoke to a bf counsellor who said to put her to the breast every 2-3 hrs and she'll probably suck even though she's asleep (what a joke). Then to express if she won't feed. I gave her some expressed milk at 11am as she latched on but fell straight back to sleep on breast with no sucking. How much ebm should I give though? Or should I give it at all?

I am so upset. I think more so because I thought there was a chance of bf working this time . Any ideas would be much appreciated. A bit at NCT helpline- I pressed the option to say I was in distress etc but still only got option to leave a message and still had no call back.

hi needaplan,
i'm glad everythings still working out. don't worry about the overnight feeds. she can go longer BECAUSE she is tanking up during the afternoons and evenings.
talk to HV/MW about the need to keep expressing. obviously depends on if they are concerned about the weight gain and/or after effects of jaundice. if there is no longer any need to express then put that to the back of your mind for now and just concentrate on bf. its a hassle you could probably do without.
if it wasn't for your initial problems and concerns, your dd and her feeding/sleeping patterns all sound pretty normal now. great job! x

Thanks popeye- I know you are right, it's just having the confidence to carry it through!

Feel and . HV just been and dd is up 4oz since Tuesday (7oz since last Friday) which I was v. happy with but because she's obviously fallen off 25 percentile, she is hassling me that I haven't quite done enough. I told her that dd isn't interested in either bottle or syringe top-ups whether she's awake or asleep. TBH I think dd feeds quite well once she's got going and if she wasn't getting enough she'd be gagging for the bottle, as she did last week! HV told me to keep persevering with the top-up's though! I did say 'well that all depends on whether I want to'. Didn't expect HV to be congratulating me on her fabulous weight gain (she is still 2oz off birth weight at 14 days old) but I did think a little encouragement wouldn't go amiss. Would almost certainly be giving up now if I was a 1st time Mum or hadn't read MN threads

can't believe HVs attitude. what you have done is way beyond anything I have ever heard in my limited BF Supporter role. I suppose she would have only been happy if you have gone down the FF route, possibly have gotten the weight up sooner, then she could tick all of her boxes and discharge you. i'm not anti bottle but you've done everything you can to keep up with BF which everyone says is better in the long run. your baby is putting on weight, isn't half starved, is happy and healthy. so she isn't putting on weight as quickly as the (BOTTLE FEEDING!!) graphs stipulate - SO WHAT.
personally i'd get a second opinion for peace of mind (i'd be stewing on HVs advice in the middle of the night). call LLL, NCT...you've spoken to them already havent you?

needaplan hello again. sounds like things are going so much better. most important it sounds as though YOU feel that your dd is feeding well - that is great. you are her mum and you are there 24 hrs a day!

Ignore the weight gain issue - she is so close to birthweight it's practically margin of error on the scales. She'll get there in a day or two at the rate she's going - not bad at all. My dd was above birthweight by 3 1/2 weeks but no idea when she actually regained it. I found this article useful too (that was later when we dropped to 2nd centile from 50th at birth)
www.drjaygordon.com/development/bf/scales.asp

You have done a fantastic job to persevere with the bf so far and sounds like your dd is doing well - well done both of you. It should be getting easier from now on so don't let the weight charts spoil that for you!

Well done, take care and enjoy your time as a larger family!

My LO was 3 weeks old yesterday (Weds) and when she was weighed on Monday she was still 5oz short of her birth weight. But as this was the second sucessive gain and she'd put on over 4oz in the previous 5 days they seemed ok with that. Once she started gaining weight I was told I could relax the 3 hourly feeding cycle and feed as required, but not to let it go more than abour 4.5 hours. I have also stopped expressing between every feed as it was too demanding on me to keep up long term, but express once or twice a day to get a little for top ups and to add her vitamin drops (pre-term baby) too. I was told to give a top up (inc formula if necessary if I don't have any expressed milk) if I feel she hasn't had enough at a feed, and am having to do that maybe once a day (and yes occasionally she is getting a little dose of formula). So I can't see why if your LO is nearly up to birth weight why they're being so hard on you. Sounds to me, from my limited experience, that you're doing great! Keep up the good work is what I say.

Jamantha (great name!!) - it's good your baby seems to be turning the corner. Even so, I wonder if you should ask again about the frequency of feeding - sounds to me like you would benefit from offering the breast a lot more, not less. 3 hrly is not very often for a small, pre-termer. Feeding more often would increase your milk supply so you would not have to express or use formula. Maybe you could ask about this??

it's ok tiktok - she normally wants feeding at least every 3 hours anyway, and it's not unusual for it to be after 2 hours. Ocacsionally she'll go 4 hours, especially at night, but not often. It's just the pressure is now off to HAVE to wake her every three hours whether she wants it or not.

And while she was a pre-termer, she wasn't particularly small - born at 34.5 weeks but weighed in at half ounce short of 7 pounds. Still I appreciate she does need to feed well, so please don't think I'm trying to wriggle out of my maternal duties. Speaking of which, I can hear her getting restless so I'd better go perform

Most babies lose weight in the first week so don't worry about that. Poo is the right colour so don't worry about that either. Your nipples shouldn't be sore at all if latch on is correct so that is the first thing to get sorted before they get any worse. Feed as often as possible to increase your milk supply, it takes a few days for your body to catch up with your baby's needs.

I personally don't reccomend expressing before breastfeeding is fully established maybe after 6 weeks or so. If you do need to express (if nipples are too sore) then I'd feed from a cup rather than a bottle so the baby is still having to work for her milk or she may become lazy and used to the teat.

But first things first, see someone asap about latch on, once that's corrected everything else will follow.

Um, your nipples will be sore if you have a small baby and you're fair skinned. Goes after a couple of weeks though (the longest 2 weeks of your life, granted ).

You shouldn't ignore sore nipples, if you have a poor latch on things will only get worse. As for the first two weeks being sore it was probably as you and baby were both learning how to feed and you were probably settled into it by two weeks.

Breastfeeding may be a little uncomfortable to start with but your nipples shouldn't be sore at all.

Jamantha - you sound as if you're doing great

Highlander - don't be dogmatic about this, please...it is just not true that nipples will be sore, fair skinned or not.

my nips aren't sore

sorry - don't mean to be dogmatic at all. It's just that it's a misconception that you must be doing something wrong if the nips hurt. I assumed it was bad technique with DS1, but still had the hurty nips with DS2 (albeit not as bad). I've read quite a few mums on hear say the same thing. Again, apologies.

Jamantha- you sound like you're doing great. I am a lot more confident this past week. I think I have been very unlucky with my HV tbh! After dd put on 7oz in a week and then 6.5oz in the following 4 days, she still had the gall to say to me 'it would still be good if you could get some top-up's down her' I had already said to her 'she doesn't need it' but all she seems to care about is dd falling off the centile line from her birth weight.

Seriously, I think you need to change your HV, needaplan. She is undermining and badly informed. You baby has gained 13.5 ounces in 11 days. It's unlikely that she would physically be able to gain much more than this - how odd your HV doesn't know this.

hi needaplan - you sound like a different person. hopefully you are feeling much better.
the charts are based on bottle fed babies who do put on weight differently so it is important to look at the baby as a whole not just the chart. my dd was always on the "correct" centile until 6wks when she was all over the place. my HV warned me this would happen so when the time came we were all ok with it as dd was obviously still doing really well. for other bf babies this change could happen sooner rather than later, but does it really matter at all if the baby is healthy?

I agree, charts are pants!! they're based on white american bottle fed babies so my mixed race english / trini breastfed baby had no chance of folloing that chart really.

I was told by hv to stop offering the breast as he was putting on too much weight, turns out he just gained loads in one week then nothing for 5 weeks but we didn't see that pattern emerge until a few months down the line, thank goodness I ignored her

mamacool, this is not true about the charts in the UK - they have their limitations in use, but this is not one of them. The charts are from a large no. of UK babies whose feeding was not differentiated.

Your HV sounds very useless, I agree

tiktok- you are right about the HV. If I had more time and energy I would complain. I hope she doesn't cause anyone to give up bf for the wrong reasons.

i was pretty sure that you could now request breastfeeding charts for your baby books now - but really i don't know why we get so obsessed with weight gain