4 day old bf baby- why is this so hard :((((((((

[needaplan]

Firstly thank you for even reading this.

I have a 4 day old dd who I'm trying to bf. I didn't succeed with dd1 who never latched on properly. With help from the mw's, dd2 latched on well (well, she seems to- opens mouth fairly wide, sucks, seems to swallow well, stays on for 15-25 mins) though my nipples are sore so I'm losing confidence with this now. For the 1st 3 days she fed around every 3-4 hrs (weighed 6lb 13oz at birth). She has been hard to settle at night though sleeps well in the day. Last night was horrendous-she had a pretty good feed at 10.30 ish last night and then wouldn't sleep or feed (was screaming) until gone 5am. She eventually pood and had a very brief feed before falling asleep. She has hardly been awake since.

I am worried about her losing too much weight and have stupidly weighed her myself (we have baby scales). She has lost 10oz. She is a bit jaundiced too.

I am just confused- what shall i do? Even though I thought she was feeding well, I can;t really tell if she has wet nappies- they don't seem wet at all. The poo in the night was very dark greenish and loosish (I think that's ok).

I spoke to a bf counsellor who said to put her to the breast every 2-3 hrs and she'll probably suck even though she's asleep (what a joke). Then to express if she won't feed. I gave her some expressed milk at 11am as she latched on but fell straight back to sleep on breast with no sucking. How much ebm should I give though? Or should I give it at all?

I am so upset. I think more so because I thought there was a chance of bf working this time . Any ideas would be much appreciated. A bit at NCT helpline- I pressed the option to say I was in distress etc but still only got option to leave a message and still had no call back.

popeye- I really, really appreciate what you're saying and I really, really want bf to work this time but I cannot deal with a baby who is awake screaming, refusing to latch on all night then asleep, refusing to wake up and feed all day (yes, even with being stripped off and toes, ears pulled etc). I feel I had to do the ebm on day 4. At the last feed, dd latched onto both sides without nipple shields and I'm sure I could hear her swallowing and milk was dripping down when she came off after 15+mins. When she got tired on the 2nd side, I gave her a nipple shield and again she seemed to do well. There was milk in the shield when she came off. I then expressed so am probably empty for a little while. She now won't settle and is rooting around. I gave in and prepared 1oz of ebm but she didn't seem interested-that is slightly encouraging I have to say! She is with dh now- off to find out whether she has drunk the milk or not! Any thoughts?

have you tried the bf counsellors again? having someone come out to see you would be ideal. I don't know if it is helpful to hear other people's experiences, but ds1 really was very similar in those first few days, the frustration of wanting him to feed instead of scream was immense, and then he just would not wake up. I went home from hosp on day 3, on day 4 my mum arrived and helped out. she took the baby from me and got me to go to my bedroom, get as calm and relaxed as pos, take a few deep breaths, try to relax my shoulders and then she brought ds in to me for a feed. it took a while but I think her calmness and giving me a bit of space to get myself relaxed did help to get bf established. hope you have a good night tonight, will be thinking of you

Ds was a very "sucky" baby as a newborn. He also needed to be close to me or dh (or anyone really) all the time and wouldn't have much truck with moses baskets or carry cots etc.

Obviously it's important that your dd gets all the milk she needs and feeds frequently and I wouldn't want to say anything that would prevent you doing that, but I found that ds would root and cry even when he had fed well. Because I had dreadfully damaged nipples I couldn't let him feed all the time so I used to give him my finger to suck and that would calm him. If he was hungry the finger wouldn't work.

He also slept mostly on my chest at night - didn't get a huge amount of sleep that way but at least some! He grew out of both of these habits by the way.

Just my experience. Don't know if any of it will be useful to you. I know it's tough - it's such a hazy time 7 months on... We're still bf'ding though after a very, very shaky start.

I was feeding every 3 hours by the way. Not ideal that it wasn't on demand but it was the best I could manage at the time. I also expressed a lot of feeds at the worst points and the amount I could get was very variable. As others have said, it bears no relation to your supply - mine was insane, one of my problems, and I could still only get half and oz some times.

needaplan,

is your dd windy? Have you tried laying her on her back and stretching her legs and doing baby yoga to see if she passes any wind?

My baby wouldnt settle either and it was about 3 weeks before i realised this was the reason why. I now do stretches with her about 4 times a day and she is brilliant after a few good pumps!

Hi Needaplan - I think you're doing a fab job persevering with this, and I'm sure it WILL come together if you carry on doing what you're doing.

Your lo sounds so like my ds. He was a very sleepy baby, though no jaundice luckily. He didn't feed at all for the first 40 odd hours of his life, and then we had to feed him from a little cup to give him some energy to even try to bf.

Sorry to disagree with some posters but I think definitely keep expressing so you're got that as a back up for when she won't feed. I always offered my ds the breast first, and then if he hadn't fed well, I'd offer him a top up of ebm from a bottle. It took him a good two weeks to get the hang of bf-ing properly, but it gave me confidence to know that he wouldn't starve if it all went wrong. We never had any problem with nipple confusion and and ended up with a baby who happily took breast or bottle - fab!!!! Expressing will also stimulate your supply so you have plenty when a growth spurt kicks in. I think the key is to always offer the breast first, then have the ebm as back up - soon I'm sure you won't need it.

I had to wake him to feed too, probably till he was about 6 wks. I woke him 3 hourly during the day - 7 am - 10 pm, and then once at 3 am - I remember setting my alarm for it! Waking 3 hourly through the day will hepl reset your baby's body clock and get night and day the right way round - probably the least of your worries at the moment, but may become a factor in the next few weeks.

DS was really hard to wake sometimes too, and tried all the tricks already mentioned - nappy change, rubbing palms of hands and feet, strip off etc etc,. but it did get easier as he got older.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you're not alone, and your dd isn't a freakish one off in behaving this way. You almost certainly will get the hang of bf-ing if you persevere, but if you don't then don't beat yourself up, she will grow up a perfectly healthy and happy little girl on formula, as your dd1 will testify!!!

Good luck

Sorry this is going to be a short post until later but wanted to say thanks again for all the encouragement you're all giving me. I think from my experience with dd1 not bf'ing at all and her being in scbu for 2 weeks, I have very little confidence this time!

We are still going with a mixture of direct bf, bf with nipple shileds and starting her off with 20mls of ebm in a bottle. I ahd to do this this morning- after 40 mins of trying to wake her, she just refused to wake but after giving her 20ml ebm, she then latched onto a boob for 30 mins. Not ideal but I just feel (gut feeling) that she doesn't have the energy to bf full-time yet- that is my aim!

Jojay and others posting with stories of their experience is v. helpful- I am realising my dd is not the only one.

She settled in the end last night it was a poo waiting to happen lol, then a brief bf, then sleep- .

I think I am going to continue feeling shaky about this until she gains instead of losing weight.

Sounds like things are going ok - I remember my midwife telling me to do exactly that - a bit of ebm to wake him up, give him the energy to feed, and to whet his appetite, then try to bf about 15 mins later. If she then fed for 30 mins, that's great!!

Keep positive, it DOES sound like you're making progress

hi needaplan,
you are doing really well, honestly. i know you are still feeling shaky but it does sound like you are making really good progress and hopefully you are at least feeling a bit better than when you first started this post.

i am proud of you for being able to handle the sometimes conflicting advice you are being given and having the confidence to find your own way.

remember that its normal for a newborn to be fretful, windy, unsettled, cry etc etc so dont assume that this is all down to the concerns you have with bf.

this must all be bringing back memories of the problems you had with dd1 but none of that was your fault. dont look back, just look forward - think of how wonderful it is going to be to walk out the door with 2 children and your magic boobs and not have to worry about taking a supply of bottles with you - hurray!

you are trying so hard to do the right thing, you sound like a great Mum. You can do this - you ARE doing this.
Hope todays a better day for you all xxxx

glad it's going better, you are doing so well. 30min feed sounds fab. do try to get sleep/food/shower/paracetamol in between feeds, will make you feel so much better!

Ah, sounds so soppy but the kindness of posters on this thread makes me cry. THANK YOU!

Popeye- yes, to go out the door without bottles as a back up would be amazing! Early days for that at the moment- I will get through 1 day at a time I guess and see what happens. I feel optimistic one minute and stressed the next. Most info says newborns should feed 8-12 times a day- ha ha, that's a joke in this house when I have to wake dd for most 4 hourly feeds. She only wakes occasionally demanding an earlier feed.

I had terrible trouble with both kids and for me I found especially with DD a little formula helped. I am not saying it is for everyone but she was very jaundiced and had a specific condition causing this. It was important that she had enough fluids to flush out her system. She was in ICU and I had to express so they could measure how much fluids she was getting. The deficit was topped up with formula. I left hosp think what a fab idea mix feeding but eventually after a few weeks she wanted just booby and to this day she is Bfed at 2.5 yrs old.

I just think you need to know formula is an option if it all gets on top of you. Some will disagree but each to their own.

If anyone is still following the thread, just thought I'd update.

Mw weighed dd2 today and she has lost a further 1oz since Wednesday. I had been feeling quite positive so it's a bit of a blow . She is 7 days old today with a total weight loss of 9.5oz. Mw was surpised that she was still losing- she said, dd's jaundice was loads better and I told her she is definitely getting something from me as she comes off my boob(or I take her off because she is too sleepy) with milk all around her mouth or in the nipple shield if I've used one. She has been having wet nappies when I check at each feed and is now having 3 or 4 dirty nappies in 24 hrs. At the time, I tried to justify her loss with the fact that I took off a pretty wet and dirty nappy just before her weigh in and she was due a feed. However she was also due a feed on Wednesday so doesn't mean much!

She said I would now have to top up with ebm bottles after every feed. In the last 2 days, I've only done this if she is obviously not satisfied after a feed on both sides (only one 1oz top up in last 24 hrs). In my upset I have got the baby scales out again. I weighed her before and after her last feed- she only went up 20mls after being on both sides.

Aw, I am really sorry you feel so low, needaplan.

You are right about the accuracy of scales - I have just googled and seen websites for baby scales trumpeting the fact they are accurate to within an ounce/25g...you cannot get an exact weight.

However, if your baby's weight is causing concern, but there is no current health problem (jaundice is going, there's no dehydration) then it's all to do with calories in...and 3-4 hrly feeding doesn't seem enough. She may be conserving calories by not waking. It also doesn't seem as if the midwife watched you feed - that's so crucial to check on attachment and milk transfer.

I don't think the weight is telling you anything worrisome, at all, though - she does need to gain, clearly, but the loss is so small and untrustworthy, we can't draw any conclusions.

Is there any way you could get milk into her more often?? And can the midwife watch you feed?

It's a hard time you're having and I hope it gets easier soon.

tiktok- I worry that I'm not feeding hr enough and have read it should be 8-12 feeds a day for newborns. But, it is so hard to wake her most of the time that I just think it would be fruitless trying more often. Actually, in the last 24 hrs, she has demanded 2 extra feeds herself so that makes it 8 feeds in just over 24 hrs. m/w agreed that 4 hourly was ok.

I don't know about the mw watching me feed. She did watch on Tuesday but dd2 was utterly zonked! Plus, I buzzed the midwives in hospital at EVERY feed so a good 8-10 different people have watched us and said the latch and her suck are good etc.

I think my milk supply is worrying me as it is a fraction of what it was with dd1- I did express from straight after my c-sec with her and didn't start this time until day 4- I wouldn't have thought that would make the difference though?

Will give NCT another ring now.

I really hope you get to speak to someone direct, needaplan.

I don't suggest you wake your baby - just keep her skin to skin with you and she will respond by making feeding cues often, which you can then respond to.

I don't agree with your midwife, sorry - 4 hrly is rarely enough for a new baby. OTOH, if your baby is asking for more feeds, then you are on the right track...and that should feel encouraging!

Honestly, I can understand you are worried and anxious, but objectively speaking, I don't think the situation demands it. Obviously, things need care and attention, and it's good you are expressing - things are not 100 per cent woderful. But no need to fear for the long term, truly.

If I have her skin to skin or carry her around, she seems to wake less often that if she sleeps in her moses basket for a couple of the hrs before the next feed. Maybe she is just an odd one!

Have just looked at my notes and the mw wrote that the weight loss is 20g- not even an oz I guess! I just really thought she would have gained a little bit because the last weigh in was the day after I started this thread when she had not fed/screamed all night and not fed/slept all day. At least now she is filling nappies. I will have to have a word with her not to poo just before she is next weighed!

needaplan, carrying her around and having her skin to skin may mean she looks asleep, but she will make feeding cues - movements of her mouth, hands, head, slight at first. This is light 'REM' sleep. With a sleepy baby if these signs are not responded to, the baby tends to go back to sleep again. If she is close, you see them, and you can respond by helping her get very ear or on the breast.

You are right about the insignificance of 20g....

ear = near

just wanted to add a word of encouragement for you needaplan - it really does sound as though things are on the right track. if your mw was really worried about the weight she would refer you back to the hospital - it does not sound like this is the case. wet and dirty nappy sounds fab too - at least for now .

yes ideally her weight should be on the up but as bf really only got on the way in the past 2 days or so, her body will still be learning to absorb nutrients. give it a few more days. tell your mw that you will need her reassurance daily, she should watch your dd for skin colour / muscle tone / alertness when awake - should be as important as the weight gain.

hang in there and really hope next week will be easier on you. for what its worth, i was still in floods of tears on day 6 living from one feed to next then a couple of days down the track i was drinking pink champagne with the family to (finally) rejoice in the arrival of beautiful dd. hope that moment comes for you soon.

thanks finsburymama- yes, I'm in floods of tears on and off today! I struggle when I'm not in control, i.e. not knowing whether this will work or not. If it all fails and i end up ff, I want to know I tried everything this time!

mw did say dd looked great in every other way. She seemed really quite shocked that she had lost weight after me telling her that other signs were positive.

tiktok- I got a message back from nct but missed the call unfortunately. Will call them again tonight.

The other issue now is putting visitors off so I can relax as much as poss with trying to crack this- I told everyone I was being selfish and having v. few visitors in the first week. Can't put it off any longer though!

If you would prefer not to have visitors, tell them so and tell them why. We had no visitors for the first fortnight after DS was born. We firmly explained why and they agreed (well, they had little choice ).

From your posts it sounds like things are improving - well done! Your baby sounds like she is healthy and thriving. Early days of bf are difficult anyway, and with the jaundice you have an extra burden - you really are doing a great job

lots of positives there, needaplan, sounds like you are near to turning that corner. is the mw coming out over the w/end?

Needaplan just wanted to offer my support, I had the same kind of nightmares with my DD. It is so so hard in those first few weeks and you sound like you are doing brilliantly I would say don't worry about your milk supply, if she's pooing 4 times a day its fine! Also the amount you can get out when you express is nothing like what the baby can get, especially when they have a good latch like yours.
Hope you get an NCT person out, mine saved me! I was a crying emotional bfeeding obsessed wreck when she came out to me, like you say your mood emtirely depended on how the last feed went.
Good luck to you and well done for getting this far without giving up (((hugs)))

hi needaplan,
it still sounds like you are making really good progress - just compare today to a few days ago; you now seem to be happier with her nappies, she's feeding better and slightly more often. i know it still seems mad but it is going to be gradual. you ARE making progress.
if it helps (i'm the one with the caesarean who's milk came in on day 6), i spent days 6/7 in tears. everything suddenly hit me and that was without the worries you have had.
get your dh to shield the visitors (he'd probably appreciate having a job to perform). they really don't matter right now, only you do. you can explain later on. this is not the time to be worrying about hurting other peoples feelings. tell them your mw has said you need time alone as you need to concentrate on feeding...blame it on someone else if it helps.

honestly needaplan, i can't believe how well you are doing. you are being so strong, so determined. you've had all of these hurdles to get over and there may be more to come but they WILL get smaller.
just keep reminding yourself how far you have come.