Still struggling at eight weeks... sorry but I need some more advice please... again!

[Mossie]

Ds is eight weeks old today and I am trying my hardest to bf him.

He only very occasionally opens his mouth wide enough to get a good mouthful of breast (my areola are absolutely huge which doesn't help) and even then he often falls asleep after just a few minutes feeding... I have to tickle his ears, strip him down to his nappy etc just to keep him awake. Still he never comes off by himself, and even if I feed both sides he's certainly not a contented baby.

I got to the point where I would feed as much as I can and then express the rest (only ever an oz or less each time) and feed it him in a bottle so I could be sure he was getting enough. This exhausted me. I have now resigned myself to just constantly feeding during the day.

At night he latches on even less well and basically sucks the nipple. I have tried everything to encourage him to open wider, it just doesn't happen. So I'm sat there for almost an hour, never sure whether or not he's had enough, as he's not proper sucking really.

He produces plenty of wet nappies but poos only about once a week. His weight gain is slow - only a few oz each week (except last week where he put on eight oz but this week we're back to two).

He is never settled between feeds for more than about ten minutes... he then starts crying again, sucking his fingers etc. like he is hungry.

I went to a LLL support group a few times, the woman there checked my latch, said it was fine, said that if he wasn't opening wide enough "he probably wasn't hungry". Which can't be the case in the middle of the night.

I have rung the NCT helpline and got advised to switch feed, which occasionally works in the day, but again, not at night.

What I want to know is, is the above normal behaviour for an eight week old? If not, has anyone else had this experience and if so how did you solve it?

Also if all else fails where can I get someone to actually come and have a look at what I'm doing and explain to me how to do it right? I don't mind paying as if I can't get this sorted soon I'm going to have to pay out for formula milk which is expensive anyway.

I know I've been banging on about my bf problems for weeks now but if anyone does have any more suggestions I really could do with them!

Well done for getting this far! I have had 2 sleepy dses (and one hungry dd!), and I know how you feel - it is very discouraging when the scales just creep up.

I'm not an expert at all, so hopefully someone (tiktok?) will be along soon, but just wanted to encourage you. Is it possible he is having a growth spurt, and that's why he's feeding constantly? Maybe that 8oz gain last week was him growing, and he needs more milk, and the only way for him to increase your supply is to feed more often.

I think with the 'not sure if he's feeding properly' thing you have to listen to see if he is swallowing, rather than just 'nibbling'. Ds1 was a terror for latching on, then falling instantly asleep, every so often doing a little nibble. We really did everything to keep him awake - threw water on him. Things I found that helped were feeding skin to skin and feeding straight after a bath. Could you try co-sleeping for a bit to help with the night feeds? (I never did that, as I didn't feel comfortable with it, but lots of people recommend it, I just fretted about squashing them!). Switch feeding is good as well, that worked well for me.

If you weren't having him weighed every week would you still be worried? What about getting him weighed every month, as some weeks they don't put on much. How is he compared to his birth weight? I had 3 big babies, and they really did creep with their weight - ds2 in particular - he was 10lb2 at birth, and is 19lb at 13months - he was only 13lb at 4 months, so putting on an average of 1/4lb a week.

I really hope things improve and I'm sure you'll get some good advice on here.

sorry to hear you're having problems. I'm not an expert but if his nappies are wet that's a good sign, some babies go through phases of hardly pooing at all. and lots want to feed constantly, he's still quite young. Have you had his jaw checked? I mean is he actually able to open his mouth wide?

Hi Tortoiseshell he does not suck for very long, and then just nibbles, so I take him off, and then within seconds he's wailing - no, screaming - to go back on. Except at night... he only every nibbles then, I hear very few swallows, but if I put him down asleep, within ten minutes he's back awake again.

As you can imagine I'm quite tired!!

In terms of weight, he was 7.13 born and is now nine and a half pounds. He is going down in centiles (I think that's what they are, those lines) and that's on the breastfed chart that I made them put in my red book.

Malaleche he is able to open his mouth wide - he certainly does when he screams anyway - and very occasionally he will go on and suck properly, but only very, very occasionally. It makes me tear my hair out more then, because I know we can do it, but there is nothing different I do on those occasions than any others, iyswim.

Mossie, is your baby unsettled because he is the sort of baby who only likes being next to you and grizzles when he isn't? Sometimes babies like this 'feed all the time' because that way they are where they want to be?

The switch feeding is a good thing to try - I am not sure what you mean by it not working at night? It's worth doing this again if you can.

I would take your concerns that he is just not contented enough seriously. If he would be more contented if he was closer to you (like in a sling) then it's not really a feeding issue. Hard to tell on the weight gain if there is anything wrong here as the pattern you describe can be normal.

happy to post again if you give more details.

Have you tried nipple shields? Then at least you can see milk pooling, and will have a better idea of if he is actually feeding? Although if you are expressing and only getting a little, then that could be the problem, that at the moment u are not producing enough milk. Try expressing regularly as well as feeding, to get your milk supply up and make sure you are well rested and eating yourself as this may be contributing. Where are you based? London has a few lactation consultants..... although it's not cheap!
Are you resigned to keep breast feeding?

Tiktok when I say it isn't working at night, I mean that he is too sleepy to even get a mouthful, he only sucks on the nipple. I feed him as soon as he wakes, do you think it is worth waiting a little longer so he is completely awake? Only trouble with that is he would cry and wake the entire street up, but if I need to wait I will do it!!

He is happier in a sling next to me, or other people, but at night, he is unsettled whether we co-sleep, or he is in his moses basket, makes no difference to him. It is the night which is the killer tbh, I can sit around most of the day feeding him (I'm on maternity leave so it's no hardship, albeit a little trying) but at night... I need to get some sleep!!

Nappytania are nipple shields the same as the shells that you wear under your bra? I am in Merseyside btw.

Mossie - is it painful when he latches on? If not, he is possibly fixed on fine - if you have a large areola he will not get it all in his mouth. Are you waking him for feeds or does he wake on his own?

BTW - avoid nipple shields if you can - they do not help babies learn to latch on properly and they can reduce your milk supply by up to 40%. They also make feeds last even longer.

Mears yes it does hurt when he latches on, my nipples are quite sore (although they seem to be tougher now so I don't notice as much). No, I don't wake him for feeds I let him wake by himsdelf.

your MW or health visitor should/would be able to look at you feeding and advise about your technique

some babies need the nipple almost putting in their mouths, also have you tried squeezing milk out before he gets it into his mouth so there milk coming out and he doesn't have to work quite so hard?

good luck

could he have tongue-tie? If you have worries about your milk supply you could try a herbal remedy, i used fenugreek capsules when DD2 hit a growth spurt at 6 mo and they really did make a difference, takes a couple of days to kick in.

And yer, I would make sure he was fully awake at night before feeding him. Also change his nappy between sides.

hi first of all congratulations for coming this far with the breastfeeding, especially with all the difficulties you've had.

have you tried calling the LLL helpline and explaining that you're still having problems with the latch? The woman at the meeting may not have appreciated that it was an ongoing thing. It sounds like if he's just sucking on the nipple he won't be able to get enough milk, which is probably why he's hungry and not gaining weight and it's probably very uncomfortable for you.

if you haven't looked at it already, kellymom.com has loads of good info on breastfeeding including links to articles about large nipples

and as well as the LLL group there might be another bf support group near you:
abm list of bf support groups

and there are are a few international lactation consultants in the UK - I think you can call them and get them to visit in your home

ilca search page (scroll down and select UK and it comes up with 34 people)

I can't remember myself what it was like at 8 weeks as my ds's are both quite a bit older now, but I do remember having problems with ds1 when he was little, certainly with him going back to sleep and my not being sure if he'd had enough milk. He had probs with weight gain too. And expressing is so tiring, probably even more than the constant feeding. I can understand why you're feeling drained. I do hope you get some help soon.

1st mw told me his latch was fine but that I should top up with formula so I could go to bed and allow my breasts to fill up.

2nd mw told me I should probably drink more milk to make more.

HV says slow weight gain is the norm in bf babies.

If he did have tongue tie surely it would've been spotted by now?

Fenugreek capsules - where would I get them?

Mossie - some babies do just gain weight slowly. Feeding at 8 weeks should not be painful though I have to say I have a friend sho found it painful for a few months then it magically stopped.

Ask your HV to observe a feed. She should be able to help. If not, she should be able to refer you to a feeding advisor at your local hospital - that's what happens where i am.

Mossie - all those three bits of advice sound wrong to me! I agree with mears, make sure he's REALLY awake before feeding him.

It's so hard isn't it, especially when you're so tired - I always feel real empathy with slow gainers, because mine were just like that, and it is SO draining, when they feed all the time and still don't pile on the weight. A friend of mine had babies that were so chubby, and she could express half a pint to a pint of milk(!). While I could do half an ounce. You're doing so well!

www.thewomens.org.au/NippleShields

here's some info on them! Maybe worth a try to see if they help.
Are you expressing and if so how??
Another thing is hiring a double electric pump like they have in hospitals.

www.medela.co.uk/UK/en/breastfeeding/breastpumprental/index.php?navid=59

then you get both breast pumuped in half an hour - i think it's about £50/month and they will deliver. If you express then your milk may increase and the feeding may be a little more successful.

Mossie, please don't use nipple shields....they can cut down the milk made available to the baby and do not help with latch. They are sometimes useful in the very early days, and occasionally mothers use them long term without problems but they are not suitable for use now in your situation.

please don't follow the weird and uninformed advice from the m/ws and HVs - dear oh dear. Topping up with formula and leaving longer gaps between feeds reduces the milk made; drinking milk to make milk is just bollox - yeah, like cows do???; the HV is just ill-informed - bf babies gain weight more slowly only after the first few months....but the charts should not be used anyway as a sole way of assessing your baby's health, as your baby's individual pattern may be fine.

I agree with mears about getting someone who knows what to look for to observe a feed. I think from what you say your baby is more than just wanting to be close to you - it's likely that a good attention paid to attachment will help him enjoy his feeds more.

mossie if you introduce formula your breasts will produce less milk -

if he's not settled then that would be an indication he's not getting enough, hope there is someone who can give pratcical hands on advice about him latching on - doesn't the hospital have something along the lines of a BF councillor, i seem to remember mine did

Hi Mossie, I really identify with your problems. When my ds was 8 weeks, he was still not completely breastfed, because he wouldn't latch for the first 6 days, and after that was a bit hit and miss. He was on a mixture of ebm and formula at the hospital.
He was very jaundiced and sleepy, so a real job to keep awake sufficiently to feed.
I used to take off his clothes, tickle his feet and blow on his face to keep him awake.
We were on a kind of rota where we woke him up every three hours, regardless of him, and then if he wouldn't latch I would express.
I found that if I did some breast massage before feeding him and hand expressed a little bit, he would latch a bit better - not sure if I think I had a slow let-down, but it did help.
Also, breast-compression seemed to help a bit where I would kind of express, whilst he was feeding, so he was getting more milk with slightly less effort on his part. I think you can find information on sites like Kellymom and La leche league or NCT.
Another thing that kept me from getting sore nipples was I would open his mouth wider as he latched, by pressing down on his chin with my finger.
Are you getting any sleep yourself during the day? If he is up all night, then you will be as well like it or not. Co-sleeping does help, because you can get a bit of kip whilst he is having his intermittent feeds.
Do you think perhaps he has wind and that is why he is fussing? I can remember sitting with my ds on my knee singing camptown races for up to 30 minutes after a feed to get some of the wind out, otherwise he would be pulling his knees up. Luckily DP would take a turn - it was kind of his 'thing' to do. He was quite an expert. Get all the help you can!!
Despite a very rocky start, everything worked out for me and the breastfeeding became a lot easier - in fact I am an extended breast-feeder now.
It is a worry isn't it, because you don't know what the baby is trying to tell you, I think that's their job - making you worry. Plus the hormones and no sleep - make you nuts.
I bet he is just a fusspot who likes sucking and loves his mummy. The fact he is producing wet nappies means he isn't dehydrated and if Tiktok isn't worried then I don't think you should be either.
You are doing an amazing job so far and you are tougher than you realise. Big Hugs to you and babe.

Awwww - mossie - sorry you are still having problems.

Well done you for coming this far! Remember that whatever happens you have done brilliantly for getting to 2 months.
I found it very hard to bf my first one, took months to get it sorted. The thing that made the difference to me was when I finally saw a breastfeeding counsellor who knew what she was talking about. I think it also helped that I had put my baby into a routine (sleeping and feeding). I know they are contentious, but it did seem to work for us. For what it is worth, I didn't have much luck with LLL either.

Mossie - wind?

When he was fretting on Saturday and you were in the changing room I picked him up and he burped and calmed down a bit. It could be adding to his fussiness?.

Also - do you want me to come and walk him for an hour or so this afternoon so that you can get some kip?