HELP! No one believes me but there is ^something^ ^not^ ^quite^ ^right^... !!

[Mossie]

First of all - sorry - I know I've hardly stopped moaning about bfing since I had my baby three and a bit weeks ago but I am sure something is not right.

1. He never comes off the breast by himself. If I left him there he would stay on for hours. I have to take him off.

2. Moments after I take him off, he cries again and smacks his lips together like he's hungry. I put him back on... he won't come off by himself.

3. He rarely sleeps; he has bags under his eyes poor lad.

4. I bought the book Bestfeeding and read about a foremilk/ hindmilk imbalance and the symptoms of a baby with this describe him almost exactly, right down to his ridiculously runny / explosive poos (sorry if tmi). But their solution is to get him to stay on until he finishes all the hindmilk and comes off by himself. Which he never does.

5. I have phoned NCT line and ABM line and neither of them really had much advice, NCT advised switch feeding but it didn't work, ABM just said to keep him on until he finished. He doesn't finish!!

6. No one believes anything is wrong. Dh thinks I am obsessing and that I may have pnd. Mil, yesterday, finally agreed there may be something wrong. But suggested that the solution may end up being.... giving him formula for a few feeds and bf for the others so at least he gets foremilk and therefore some benefits of bfing. I would prefer not to do this but will as a last resort.

7. I am going to a LLL drop in on Tuesday, but I can't wait until then really, I need someone to believe that there is something wrong, otherwise I'm going to start questioning my own sanity.

Please please please please someone tell me that I might have a point? And if anyone has any advice that isn't to put him on formula, please advise. Will he be all right until Tuesday without any additional feeds if my suspicions are right?

Sorry this is so ridiculously long!

Mossie - there is absolutely no need to give formula in a cup. If you feel that you need to do it, then that is something else but it doesn't sound as if you do.

My first baby NEVER came off the breast himself - I had to decided enough was enough and break his suction with my pinky.

When he is on the breast is he actually sucking all the time or sleeping with the nipple in his mouth?

When he first latches on he will suck vigorously till the milk lets down then he will suck more slowly. He should swallow after every suck which shows he is getting milk. Listen to him as he sucks and you should hear it. He will pause every so often as the milk is let down in separate jets. Watch that the pause does not last too long - he may have fallen asleep. Tickle his cheeck or blow gently on his face to get him sucking again. As he reaches the end of the feed you will see him 'flutter suck'. Do not take him off at this stage as he is actually getting some hind milk. After about 10 mins of that, I would take him off, wind him and offer him the same side again. This will ensure he is getting the richer hindmilk.

As has been said before though, there isn't a clear demarcation line between fore and hind milk - it merges in together. The same process should occur. Once he is off the breast again, if he is looking for more, put him on the other side.

Giving formula just now is not necessary and it can have an impact on your milk production. You just need a boost of confidence.

Are your nipples OK? Does it hurt to feed? Is his head and body in a straight line when you attach him? Do his cheeks look full when he is on? It will be difficult to see curled back lips so cheek fullness is a good sign he is on properly. Is his chin up against your breast? All these signs show if the baby is on as well as he could be.

A baby who is not attached really well will take longer to feed. Will post a link of clips in a minute.

Runny, ellow poos are normal. Please do not worry about your diest at the moment - it does not sound as though there is intolerance here.

You and your baby have only been breastfeeding for just over 3 weeks - it is still getting established. You will get there

this page may help. There are videos at the bottom of the page

latching on

And I agree that your MIL or DH should take him out in the pram or sling which will help him sleep. Babies do not need permanently attached to the breast.

Mossie, your mil and dh are way, way out of line with that ultimatum.

It's nothing to do with your mil, it's YOUR baby, not hers. If she wants to be involved then she can help you by making meals, doing laundry and some housework for you, rather than forcing you into doing something you don't want to do.

As for your dh, IF bf doesn't work out (which it will, if you can cope until Tues - it's only 3 days) how will you feel towards him? I still majorly resent the HV who suggested formula top ups with my first 2 dcs because it was a slippery slope to the end of bf for me. I'd hate to feel that towards my dh.

Can you show them this thread? Make them see that it isn't just your baby, that all babies go through this and that you need them to be 100% behind you?

Really, 6-8 weeks of your baby's life is nothing, surely they can support you for that long, just till it gets easier?

Can they really not look after you and accept that you are knackered, hormonal (and therefore irrational) and need some tlc until tuesday when you can make a properly informed decision, rather than being blackmailed into topping up when you don't need to, your baby is just being a 3 week old baby.

As I mentioned before Mossie - I have had to give my DH strict constraints on his "support" as otherwise he helps by saying things like "well, shall we just give him some formula?" or "I will support you whatever you want to do" which is great but what I need is someone saying "yay for you! You are doing this! IT is going GREAT!"

So that is what he is allowed to say now!

Not helpful at all to receive ultimatums. My mil often says "he feeding again?" incredulously but I keep dropping snippets of bf info into conversation - particularly that breast milk is digested so much more quickly. So she is slowly getting on board. And remember - we are a couple of weeks on from you too.

Kateyp x

PS and yes - he is feeding again - right now

I just love your take on this KateyP! It reminds me that DH used to say that kind of thing a lot and you're right - it is exactly what you need to hear when you're getting no sleep and you haven't had a shower in three days.

why is mil so involved? i think you need to get rid of her for a few days. if it is dhs 1st baby he is likely to listen to his beloved mum thinking she is the fountain of all knowledge and then agree with her rather than you, even if he doesnt realise he is doing it. dont let him

my baby is 10 weeks and is only just getting out of doing this. if you dont want to give formula, dont! you have managed so far, can you manage another 3 days? i found if i just accept i am staying on the sofa and stock up with magazines, videos and chocs i can get through it ok. keep telling yourself its not forever. otoh i have asked dh to give ds a couple of bottles so i could get a break and it hasnt caused any problems. if you are happy its fine. but dont do it cos mil is telling you to

Mossie, just a quickie from me and DD about to yell

You are doing really well

My LO doesn't come off the boob by herself, as others have said just pop them off once they look like they have stopped feeding

Why do DH?MIL want you to give formula?
They should just be pacing the floor soothing the baby while you get some rest between feeds

If your MIL did not bf successfully then ignore every word she says on the subject

and one more little thing
If it is as basic as his need to suck and be near to you 24/7 formula will make f all difference to be perfectly blunt.

I think or I thought a mostly foremilk feeding pattern caused more greener watery poos?

I'd trust your instincts Mossie, am appalled that your dh and MIL are not hepling you the way you want to proceed, if formula is what YOU want to try then it's a very different scenario, but it's your bf relationship and if you want it then you are entitled to keep it on your terms.

I've been there and at 6wks I got brutal and had advice from a plunket nurse( similar to HV but better)
To make ds1 space out his feeds to 2.5hrs
we kept his nappy off, walked him, let him suck fingers, bathed him.
He started to take longer feeds and because we did not allow him to cat nap on the job, he was tired and slept better betwen feeds..

Wishing you luck n love again

Not had a chance to read everything but wanted to add a couple of things..

1. My DS would stay attached to me for hours at go if I didn't take him off, I once left him as long as he would go and after 2.5 hours I gave up waiting for him to stop. When Itake him off he often looks to go back on but I leave it a wee bit to see if he's just after comfort or if he actually starts properly crying to be fed again. He does nap while on and do little sucks in his sleep (whether there is a breast there or not !)

2. I may have people throwing things at me for suggesting this... but have you tried to bottle feed EBM ? Then when you were expressing you could see the foremilk (thin and bluish) and the hindmilk (thicker and creamy yellow) coming through and see for yourself what is being produced in what proportions. You would also know how much he's taking at a feed. I find as well that if DS gets an EBM bottle (usually when I have to be out or DP is taking a turn feeding) then he takes the milk much faster and he seems to fill up better. Sometimes I thnik that when he is feeding from me his tummy is emptying about as fast as it's filling and he just turns into a perpetual noshing machine.

Lots of good stuff here, Mossie, esp from mears.

You don't need to express to see how much the baby is getting - expressing does not show this, all it shows is how much you can get out at that particular time when expressing - the baby could get more, or less, it's not relevant. Please don't start looking at the milk to check the diff. between fore and hindmilk - many mothers can't see any difference anyway as it merges and it's not a clear cut off. You can't judge 'proportions' and anyway - what's the 'right' proportion?

Suis, I am not throwing stuff at you, , but I don't see how bottle feeding ebm could help Mossie at all - not denigrating your experience, but it can't apply to others, necessarily.

I DID try giving DS a bottle of EBM, having picked up the tip from the Baby Whisperer (yes, I know now that her bfing advice is rubbish but I didn't have MN back then). The result was that he glugged it down and then started rooting for more. I really don't think that there is any way to bypass the marathon feeds if that's the way your baby is so inclined. All you can do is garner support (of the bringing meals/tv remotes/books variety) and make sure you have a comfy sofa.

My LO too was permanently attached for the first few weeks. Just put your feet up, get the remote, copies of Heat and the phone. Learn to do everything with one hand! Once you accept it is normal you can relax. Get baby weighed a couple of times to set your mind at rest that he is gaining weight (but don't obsess about it!) and then eventually it will sort itself out.

3 weeks is very young and baby is still learning as are you. You probably have a voracious feeder as I did.

As for the sleep - at 3 weeks they will be dozing on and off all day and not in a pattern. That too will sort itself out.

Just keep feeding on demand. Don't unlatch until you are sure LO has stopped feeding.

One more thing - My LO used to comfort suck as a way to get herself to sleep. If you feed him and then he comes off but begins rooting again - try putting him in his cot, he may just be tired. Otherwise the suggestions about putting him in the car, pram etc are also good.

The car is great for getting them to sleep. Drive to a country park or sea front or something, take a snack for yourself and once baby has gone off, park up (somewhere safe) have your snack and a little nap too.

Honestly it gets better - i hated hearing this but it really does! Keep up the good work.

Not sure if this helps but my bf counsellor told me to unlatch when the pauses are longer than the sucking periods and no longer than about 25 mins each side...I think you are doing great too btw!

I should add that I have precisely the opposite problem in that ds seems to only nurse for about 2 mins each side... but that's another story...

Sounds exactly like ds2 at that age. He never came off himself, and one night he fed for a 5 hour stretch! You should have heard the awful things I was saying to him! I saw a BF counsellor shortly after that and she told me to swap sides every 15 mins, as he was just comfort sucking. It went against everything I'd learned from MVs and HVs, but it did work. Eventually you get better at knowing if they're comfort sucking or proper feeding, so you know if changing sides is necessary. Things to settle down after a few weeks. I have every sympathy though - it's pretty horrendous at the time.

Mossy - hi again - how are you?

Just to add two things:

Do you undress your baby to feed? I fed my baby topless for the first few weeks with him in just in a nappy as the skin to skin contact helped us both relax and get a decent latch. It also meant I didn't have to faff around with bra straps and t shirts as when I was trying to latch him on and could concentrate on the latch. I still undress him for feeds, 'cos otherwise he gets to warm falls asleep. In fact I still feed topless when I feed at home which is 90% of the time. The skin to skin contact really makes it a much nicer and more relaxing experience. It might also give you an excuse to hide away from DH and MIL when you feed, so you don't have to suffer their comments on how you are doing it.

I also gave all of mine formula top ups in the first 2/3 weeks when I was struggling and they seemed to feed once an hour. What I found was that the formula top ups did help me for a few days - but they did intefere with the feeding cycle, so baby would sleep too long, wouldn't need to feed and I would get engorged. This kind of made the whole thing worse as I would then have to deal with engorged breasts as well as sore nipples.

Giving the odd bottle of FF isn't the end of the world if it helps you get through, but you need to be sure its the best thing for you and it sounds to me as though you'd only be doing it to keep DH and MIl off your back, rather than because you want to, which can't be right.

You do sound as though you are getting there and believe me, it will improve. I really want you to hang on in there - not least so you can experience how beautiful BFing is when it sorts itself out and starts to go right.

Morning Mossie.
How are you doing today?

Last night my DH took ds2 out in the car at midnight for an hour to give me a break (DS2 having fed from around 6pm til midnight almost constantly - I was in a bit of a state thinking he would continue through the night) Then on his return he carried on sleeping for about 15mins then wanted to feed again. So - roughly every hour and a half through the night, and up at 6 with his big brother and Daddy. Again - I have been left to have LIE IN!! Had forgotten what one of those was tbh. DS2 been in his swing. But he does tend to be mroe settled in a morning. I guess that it because he has eaten so much during the night

Anyway - just wanted to let you know that I am still here with you, although I hope that your lo is doing a bit better than mine!

kateyp x

Haven't read the whole thread, but this sounds very like my DS. He subsequently continued to not eat enough and FTT, so it got quite serious. I'm in France, and the standard advice no matter where I turned was 'mother doesn't have enough milk, bottle feed.' So I went to see a lactation consultant and she said it was the hindmilk/foremilk issue.

In the end I went abroad and saw a paediatric gastroenterologist who did a pH probe and found that DS had horrendous acid reflux. Since being on medication he has become a completely normal feeder and is putting on weight absolutely normally (well, more than normal but he's catching up).

Just wanted to say really not to ignore your feeling that something is wrong, keep pushing it until you find an answer that satisfies you. If you let people talk you into doing something you are not comfortable with you are more likely to feel awful later about having done it!

Everyone thanks for the advice and chivvying me to keep going.

Last night I managed to avoid this top-up that they wanted me to do... more by chance than anything, after a two and a half hour marathon feed with dh and mil tutting and watching (well not quite but it felt like that) he came off by himself and went down from nine until one. After that he was in bed with me and with dh in the other room I fed him how I wanted to.

Today I managed to get mil on my side (not dh though) and she agreed that he might just be quite hungry and need more feeds. After about four hours on and off this morning I passed him to her to settle him and he went down for three hours!

He has had quite a bit of sleep today and is quite wakeful now, if I can go another day (tomorrow) without giving him that top up that dh seems to want, I can go on Tuesday and if LLL woman really has no advice, at that point and only that point, will I consider other options.

Anyway he's crying now... better go!!

Mossie you're doing really, really well. I'm glad your MIL's giving you a bit of support now and hopefully Tuesday will give you help/reassurance/strategies.

Mossie you are doing a grand job. your baby is so little and what he is doing is completely normal. When dd was that age, i sometimes wouldn't get off the sofa as she fed all day. Do whatever you want to do and stuff your dh and mil. Do not let anyone undermine your confidence. This is a stage and it does not last forever. Excuse the pun but go with the flow and it will become second nature.

poor Mossie! You are doing so wonderfully sticking in there.

I just have to add that I decided to give my dd a daily formula top-up when she was about two weeks old. We had reached a similar point because I wasn't filling her up (she had lost weight and lots of crying) and I was in agony with my latch on one breast. I tried expressing but it took forever to get the tiny amount I did and she guzzled it in minutes. I felt like a failure! It was the toughest decision to agree to a formula top up but it got us back on track. I don't remember how long the bottle feeding lasted but it slowly slipped out of our routine once she would go through with just bf.

I know you don't want to go there and I admire you for pursuing bf exclusively. I hope that the advisor you see on Tuesday is helpful.

That's sounding like a step in the right direction Mossie. I bet you feel relieved that things are looking up. Glad to hear that your MIL has come round a bit. Do you think her view was perhaps driven by feeling that you were "hogging" the baby. I know that sounds ridiculous but plenty MILs seem to act that way.

Keep up the good work!