HELP! No one believes me but there is ^something^ ^not^ ^quite^ ^right^... !!

[Mossie]

First of all - sorry - I know I've hardly stopped moaning about bfing since I had my baby three and a bit weeks ago but I am sure something is not right.

1. He never comes off the breast by himself. If I left him there he would stay on for hours. I have to take him off.

2. Moments after I take him off, he cries again and smacks his lips together like he's hungry. I put him back on... he won't come off by himself.

3. He rarely sleeps; he has bags under his eyes poor lad.

4. I bought the book Bestfeeding and read about a foremilk/ hindmilk imbalance and the symptoms of a baby with this describe him almost exactly, right down to his ridiculously runny / explosive poos (sorry if tmi). But their solution is to get him to stay on until he finishes all the hindmilk and comes off by himself. Which he never does.

5. I have phoned NCT line and ABM line and neither of them really had much advice, NCT advised switch feeding but it didn't work, ABM just said to keep him on until he finished. He doesn't finish!!

6. No one believes anything is wrong. Dh thinks I am obsessing and that I may have pnd. Mil, yesterday, finally agreed there may be something wrong. But suggested that the solution may end up being.... giving him formula for a few feeds and bf for the others so at least he gets foremilk and therefore some benefits of bfing. I would prefer not to do this but will as a last resort.

7. I am going to a LLL drop in on Tuesday, but I can't wait until then really, I need someone to believe that there is something wrong, otherwise I'm going to start questioning my own sanity.

Please please please please someone tell me that I might have a point? And if anyone has any advice that isn't to put him on formula, please advise. Will he be all right until Tuesday without any additional feeds if my suspicions are right?

Sorry this is so ridiculously long!

he could just be comfort nursing and giving himself belly ache I would really recommend a cranial osteopath visit asap. Often babies who are in discomfort want to suck as it realises natural chemicals that make them feel better/in less pain which would then confuse his full up signals etc.

Oh and Mossie - I find it does help to think that somewhere, you are sat on a sofa with a limpet attached to your boob too! So hold that thought when your lo is sucking away - that over in Cambridgeshire I am likely to be doing exactly the same thing and wondering when (or if) I will ever get to do a wee...

mossie - how often is he pooing?

He sounds very very much like my dd - she would fall asleep feeding, but nowhere else, and was permanently attached - friends said they didn't even see what her eyes looked like until she was 4 months old! As soon as I unlatched her she would root or scream, and not stop until she was latched on again. I was a zombie surviving on 3-4 hours sleep a day for months.

Her poos were very, very, very frequent.

It turned out in the end that she is milk intolerant. I gave up eating all dairy when we suspected this at 15 weeks, and things improved dramatically (takes a week or so to get out of your system). Wished I'd known to try it sooner. If this is the case, then formula will prob make it worse rather than better, as it's made from cows milk (you can get hypoallergenic formula on prescription).

He could be sleeping instead of feeding, it's hard to tell, as he seems to "nibble" after a while?

He poos about five or six times in 24 hours, all very very runny, no hard bits in it at all really.

How would I find out if he is dairy intolerant, cut out dairy from my food?

SOme people say that what you eat can affect the baby. I have never found this at all but that is not to say that it isnt true.

I don't think cutting out dairy in your food would diagnose if he is dairy intolerant. He may be sensitive to some things in your diet - but so little passes through to the milk.

I really thikn it sounds normal. But if you are worried, I would seek further advice from a qualifed breast feeding councillor

btw 'nibbling' while sleeping is totally normal. I mentioned looking at his temples when he is feeding. If they are moving in time with his feeding then he is actively feeding. If not, he may well be asleep. Unlatch him, stick him in the car seat and go for a drive. Buy yourself a magazine, a sandwich and go sit in a car park

Mossie, his poo sounds normal to me - does it look like yellow poster paint? Also, exploding is normal, they fire them out at a rate of knots!!

What he's doing sounds pretty typical for a 3 and a bit week old. (I'll leave it to tiktok to say that it's 'normal'). Mine was exactly the same. I found that I had to trust my body, give in to the constant feeding and mentally accept that it could be like that for a few more weeks. Once I did that it got easier. BF seems to be a mental battle as much as a physical one, once you adjust your mindset it really does become easier.

You are in the lucky position of having to do othing other than feed so I would just follow him. Let him stay attached for as long as he wants until you can't cope any longer with having a baby attached to you then either give him to dh or go for a walk with him, to have a little break.

Also, bear in mind 3 weeks is a classic growth spurt time so they do feed even more frequently (if that's possible!). My ds2 never 'finished' a feed either, until he was about 7/8 weeks, then he started to come off on his own accord more often.

At his age there is nothing wrong with comfort sucking, all he wants is to be close to you and be comforted by you.

The foremilk/hindmilk thing is explained really well here . I found the hot tap analogy really good, because I realised that when he was permanently attached he was most likely getting a lot of hindmilk. If you squeeze your breast at the beginning of a feed you'll see the milk is quite clear and watery but if you do it after he's been on for a while you can see the droplets are much creamier.

I would also say do NOT buy the Tracey Hogg book until you feel you have bf established. Her bf advice is appalling and was a contributer to me giving up bf with ds1.

Oh, and the last thing I was going to say, whoever perpetrated the myth that newborns sleep all the time never had a real baby . None of my 3 slept for the first couple of months, thetused to spend 18 hours a day awake, rather than the other wayround. I'd be fairly certain it has nothing to do with your ability to bf, it's just him, my ds1 and dd were exactly the same when I switched to ff at 4 weeks. Ds2 (who's fully bf)is now 18 weeks and has just, in the last fortnight, started napping for more than half an hour at a time. They do get there, I promise.

This really is the last thing, don't panic about weight gain too much, my ds2 took 6 weeks to regain his birthweight. If your ds is going up that's a good sign you're doing okay.

I KNEW I'd forgtton something!

I found that if I watched the underside of his chin whie he was feeding I could see when he was swallowing - I could never hear it. Basically, his chin used to go down and up, down and up, then down, slight pause then up. I had to watch carefully but the pause is noticable.

FWIW, I couldn't get breast compressions to work either.

Just take it all one day at a time for the time being. i used to get to the point you sound at and say, if it's this bad tomorrow then I'll get some formula, but somehow it never quite got that bad. If you search my name in the bf threads you'll see how many threads I started, panicking about bf. But it's absolutely fine now.

You CAN do, you ARE doing it, just have faith in yourself and your baby.

(and put the wretched book in the back of a cupboard - it's just causing you unnecessary angst!)

I'll go away in a minute. There aren't any hard bits in his poo because there aren't any hard bits going in, if it's only liquid going in, you're only going to get liquid coming out, don't worry!

thanks will come back properly later

mine did this too mossie, it gradually got easier over the 3-6 week age though. i did think she was feeding all the time then at 3 wks i realised she was just using me as a human dummy! once i realised this i i used to gently slip my nipple out and pop a dummy in straight away. did this a few times but she just spat dummy outafter a couple of minutes and cried till i fed her again. the main prob was that she would fall asleep feedingafter a few minutes, i'd wake her and she'd feed for another few etc etc. she's much much better now at 13 wks. i can tell the diffence between feeding and just sucking by checking that her jaw is moving not just her lips, i also listen for swallowing. good luck - hang on in there i'm sure it will get easier soon enough!

You could try posting here . There are a few BFC's there and BF1 board is always monitored in case someone needs help. You definitely won't get advised to switch to FF there but there might be someone who can help.

Gotta be quick - about to leave for weekend. Yes, dairy can pass through (in some women) to your breastmilk. You'd need to cut out all dairy from your diet to test this (don't sub with soya as often intolerant to both - use rice milk and pure sunflower spread). Our paed was happy to diagnose based on the dramatic difference that this made to dd. I'm still off dairy as she is still intolerant at 15 months, but hoping she'll grow out of it soon.

Will be back late Monday if you have any more questions about this.

Hi Mossie. I haven't read the whole thread, but I wanted to let you know that my ds was exactly the same. He was constantly wanting to be latched on and didn't ever come off of his own accord. He would cry if I took him off myself. I never knew when to change him from one side to the other and didn't have an answer when people asked how often he was feeding other than "once a day, all day every day!" He was gaining weight, peeing pooing etc so I just went with it and at 9 weeks, one day he came off my breast by himself and went three hours without a feed! Looking back, I reckon his latch wasn't very good and it was taking him all day to get the required amount of milk, but of course I will never know for sure if this is true. I would refer you to one of the breastfeeding organisations and see if they can offer you any advice but in the meantime you have my sympathy - it is really exhausting for everyone involved! BTW we are still breastfeeding 18 months on and ds seems to love it. Maybe that's what it was all about for him at the beginning!

Hi Mossy
have attempted some responses:

1. He never comes off the breast by himself. If I left him there he would stay on for hours. I have to take him off.

This is normal - IMHE a newborn will stay on for days if you let them and its natural. Keep hi on as long as he is swallowing milk. If its just his mouth moving, he's probably fallen asleep. If so, take him off and wake him up fully before letting him on again, so he's awake enough to drink.

2. Moments after I take him off, he cries again and smacks his lips together like he's hungry. I put him back on... he won't come off by himself.

I keep putting mine on again and again for up to 20 minutes each side, until I'm convinced he's full. But even when he's full he still cries when he realises he's been taken off, so I stick a dummy in his mouth and try and distract him (by changing him or putting him in his buggy or car seat)

3. He rarely sleeps; he has bags under his eyes poor lad.

Babies don't know how to sleep sometimes. have you tried taking him outside for a walk in his buggy, or walking round with him in your arms or in a sling? The motion should settle him hopefully.

4. I bought the book Bestfeeding and read about a foremilk/ hindmilk imbalance and the symptoms of a baby with this describe him almost exactly, right down to his ridiculously runny / explosive poos (sorry if tmi). But their solution is to get him to stay on until he finishes all the hindmilk and comes off by himself. Which he never does.

I agree with the fore/hind milk thing. My baby will happily stop drinking omce he's finished the watery foremilk and will only take the hind milk when I keep putting him back on. For each feed I take him off/wake him/put him back on at least 3 times each breat. he drinks the foremilk quickly then the hindmilk much slower....when he's finished the foremilk I take him off and burp him to wake him, then put him back on...

BTW your baby's poos sounds just right (watery, explosive and mustard coloured?). Its normal for BF newborns to lose weight in the first 3/4 weeks - as long as he is alert and weeing/pooing he should be fine.

You sound as though you are doing really well Mossy and are v observant - its still very early days and it does get easier (I very nearly gave up at 3/4 weeks, but at 6 weeks it all suddenly fell into place)

Mossie, This sounds almost exactly like the reason I found MN in the first place! Not sure about the not sleeping, but the constant feeding is soooooo normal. The number of threads I have seen on here about this! My DD fed ALL THE TIME until about 8 weeks. There was no "feeds" as such, just a permanane attachment to my breast. If I took her off (to go to the loo..) she would scream and scream. I am not any sort of expert, but my personal theory is that it is probably an instinct, Mother nature knows what she is doing, and lots and lots of suckling is the BEST way to establish bf well.

Well, dh and mil have now said that I am being pigheaded, babies do not need to feed all day and that they will only help me if I agree to supliment with about an oz of formula a day (until Tuesday when we see the LLL woman and get her advice).

I have reluctantly agreed - and then on Tuesday should get some professional advice - how best to keep my supply going, do I express the feed he misses?

Hi Mossie
Joe is only a few days younger than your LO, his poos are all yellow and runny, that is totally normal, and yesterday i changed him because his nappy had leaked and left a wet patch on my trousers, drove the 20 mins home from my friends, only to find he had now done such an explosive one it was right up his back! unfortunately, this also is totally normal

Joe also looks tired to me, his eyelids are very dark, and he NEVER removes himself from feeding, unless he falls asleep and loses the latch.

hang on in there, things may not be totally right, but just keep asking questions everywhere you can until you are satisfied that all is ok again xx

Mossie - you must do what YOU feel is right, if you supplement because they have told you too you may end up angry with them

Just wanted to say thanks everyone.

... next three days going to be difficult, I really hope the LLL woman on Tuesday can help me with my latch and tell them they are wrong and I'm right to feed him...

Please tell me three days of one top up aren't going to ruin it forever if I express the missed feed and feed him the formula in a cup?

it won't ruin it but it may make it less likely you end up continuing to bf, it may well undermine your confidence further x

Mossie, how about expressing and offering that as a top up? How can formula be any better than your own milk?

To be honest, your ds sounds pretty much like mine but you're obviously really worried so if it will help you to know what he's taking then I can't see what harm it would do to offer a couple of oz ebm in a cup. Don't see how formula would be better or fill him up more.

I think your dh & mil are being extremely unsupportive to say things like they won't help you unless you do things their way.

I'm sorry Mossie, but I'm so angry I just have to say this: your DH and MIL should be bloody well ashamed of themselves. There it's said. Sorry - I know it isn't very helpul.

FWIW, DS was just the same as yours - as I said on a thread yesterday, it took us a couple of days to sort out his latch, he then latched on and didn't latch off for 3 months. But sometimes he was asleep when I thought he was feeding - I was just too inexperienced to realise it. I second the motion thing for getting him to sleep. If your DH decides that your behaviour is sufficiently unpigheaded for him to help out a bit, then he put baby in a sling or a pram and take him for a walk. Or even for a trip out in the car. That worked a treat with DS and gave me a couple of hours' much-needed sleep.

I'd agree with Shona, maybe trying to express and give to ds might be a better way to go, that way you can see how much he's had and he can't mess around!