Can't seem to change the way I think about BF

[twiglett]

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hercules, if that was in repsonse to my query where does it talk about gut permeability?

Not really in response to yours tanum. I said here as couldnt think what else to call my link. Dont know te answerr to your ?

Don't worry I was just curious

lotshereandigA

Average world age for weaning is 4 so extended bf is hardly that unusual.

tamum - if you see my later post I didn't produce an 'anecdote' - I produced a research paper. Indeed there are always individuals such as yourself who seem to run contrary to the research but two points here - firstly you don't know that your dd could have been more ill without b/feeding, and secondly the research does do controls, it wouldn't be proper research without it!

Statistical evidence does show b/fed babies to be healthier, I mean that has been proven a zillion times over.

Obviously immunity is a complex thing and complicated by genes and environmental factors hence the reason for these disparities.

daisy - sorry but zzzzz - we've already covered that point. If you met my dd you'd see that she is grown up, VERY grown up - I might listen to you if you could give any evidence of exactly HOW I am preventing my child from growing up.

sorry twiglet - we aren't making you seem like a bad/inferior mother (hell there's an awful lot to parenting) - I just feel that we've been forced to prove a point because of the disbelief of others.

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Twiglett, I think there are other people who have similar feelings to you (see the beginning part of this thread), but like a lot of emotive subjects this seems to have turned into a debate over who's the best mother, and I think that wasn't the original point of the thread?

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How is this about who's the best mother? More about people defending being told that what they do horrifies others.

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Ds was fed until 4 and has rarely been ill (nearly 9 now). I have no idea whether this is due to the breastfeeding but I do know for him he didnt suddenly get lots of illnesses.

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I take your point Twiglett and I know I am, being very overdefensive. I know it's not a personal attack on me.

I also peraps need to think about what I ave posted on other threads about what I find horrible because it isnt very nice when te choices you make are criticised this way.
Yes, it should be possible to discuss things but still doesnt stop people wanting to defend what they dop.

Maybe part of it is down do who we mix with. I know many people who breastfed for a long time, at work and socially.

Bloss ? re sleep I was just saying to twiglett that it isn?t ?wrong? to give a nearly 3 year old milk in the night. Co-sleeping isn?t for everyone I agree and no sleep in a young child is harmonious or relaxing. I think its quite hard to train babies, regardless of how or where they sleep.

As I said it is difficult, neigh impossible to find research on long term b/feeding because so few of us do it. The point is that at this magical 12 month mark babies don?t suddenly develop a fully mature immune system. It is a gradual process that takes about 7 years. This is probably what lies behind the b/feed to 2 years policy. Obviously the first year of b/feeding is more important than the 2nd but it still helps a lot. No I don?t see it as postponing illness; by the time the child stops b/feeding he firstly has a more mature immune system and secondly is bigger and stronger so is better able to cope with illnesses. Also an important point is that b/feeding doesn?t always completely prevent your child from getting illnesses, they do get a cold for example but just a lot milder than the non b/fed child. So it?s not a case of a backlog of illnesses waiting to happen, they already have happened but you?d hardly have noticed them.

And yes of course b/fed babies are developing their own antibodies all the time You don't need to be horribly ill to develop antibodies. That is how vaccinations work - just a tiny bit of the disease can be enough.

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bloss - it is a bit of both, the immune system matures through time but also with exposure too.

I think this paper may address some of your queries ....

Ann Allergy Asthma Immunol 1999 May;82(5):478.

Breastfeeding provides passive and likely long-lasting active immunity.

Hanson LA.

Department of Clinical Immunology, Goteborg University, Sweden. [email protected]

OBJECTIVES: The reader of this review will learn about the mechanisms through which breastfeeding protects against infections during and most likely after lactation, as well as possibly against certain immunologic diseases, including allergy. DATA SOURCES: I have followed the literature in the area closely for the last 30 to 40 years and have made repeated literature searches through MEDLINE, most recently in 1998. Textbooks and peer-reviewed journals have been sought for, as well as books representing meeting reports in English, French, German, and Spanish. RESULTS: Human milk protects against infections in the breastfed offspring mainly via the secretory IgA antibodies, but also most likely via several other factors like the bactericidal lactoferrin. It is striking that the defense factors of human milk function without causing inflammation, some components are even directly anti-inflammatory. Protection against infections has been well evidenced during lactation against, e.g., acute and prolonged diarrhea, respiratory tract infections, otitis media, urinary tract infection, neonatal septicemia, and necrotizing enterocolitis. There is also interesting evidence for an enhanced protection remaining for years after lactation against diarrhea, respiratory tract infections, otitis media, Haemophilus influenzae type b infections, and wheezing illness. In several instances the protection seems to improve with the duration of breastfeeding. Some, but not all studies have shown better vaccine responses among breastfed than non-breastfed infants. A few factors in milk like anti-antibodies (anti-idiotypic antibodies) and T and B lymphocytes have in some experimental models been able to transfer priming of the breastfed offspring. This together with transfer of numerous cytokines and growth factors via milk may add to an active stimulation of the infant's immune system. Consequently, the infant might respond better to both infections and vaccines. Such an enhanced function could also explain why breastfeeding may protect against immunologic diseases like coeliac disease and possibly allergy. Suggestions of protection against autoimmune diseases and tumors have also been published, but need confirmation. CONCLUSIONS: Breastfeeding may, in addition to the well-known passive protection against infections during lactation, have a unique capacity to stimulate the immune system of the offspring possibly with several long-term positive effects.

"This isn't just luck, they have extremely robust immune systems and I put this down to long term breastfeeding. Can't prove it with a research paper of course"

This was what I was responding to. The paper you post specifically relates to the first year of life only. I am well aware of the research relating to this and have never disputed it. Of course the paper uses controls, it couldn't have been published otherwise.

mummytosteven I don't know, sorry. The Glasgow stat of 9 per cent I got from a talk I went to, and it's not the whole of Glasgow, just small pockets. Elsewhere the figures are a lot higher (they are on the web).

I think it is possible that most people on Merseyside don't start, but within that, there will be pockets where hardly anyone does, and pockets where the vast majority do.

Nationally, I think the 2000 survey showed that 66 per cent of mothers initiate bf (I might be one or two per cent out, sorry).

tamum - I said earlier that it is hard to find papers which specifically relate to babies over one year. The point I made later was that your child doesn't suddenly develop a good immune system at 1 year old so continuing to b/feed will help the child with childhood illnesses. A 2 year old hardly has less colds etc than a one year old does it?

I've copied the bit from my previous post here -

"There is also interesting evidence for an enhanced protection remaining for years after lactation against diarrhea, respiratory tract infections, otitis media, Haemophilus influenzae type b infections, and wheezing illness. In several instances the protection seems to improve with the duration of breastfeeding."

Can I just state an important point that all the women here who are long term b/feeders have provided documented evidence, backed up by references, and positive experiences addressing every single counter argument to the non-believers.

Yet the non-believers haven?t been able to provide a single shred of evidence against long term b/feeding. All we hear are ?I think this or that? or ?I feel this or that? . Sorry but this isn?t good enough!

I am tired of this, have proved my point enough