Still can't BF at 7 weeks - feeling gutted

[Havana]

Am totally gutted that I can't breastfeed. In spite of my doubts, the hospital staff assured me my daughter was feeding fine, but she lost about 15 per cent of body weight in first week and my milk almost dried up completely. Have been expressing ever since, and putting her to the breast daily in the hope that we'll eventually get the hang of it. Seven weeks on, we're getting nowhere, and I'm feeling increasingly desperate and sad. She has now started making a real performance over bottle feeding (we don't have 'feeds' - she just grazes all day and I get really paranoid about the milk going off) and our whole day is taken up with pumping/feeding. I'm insanely jealous of people who can BF, feel sick when I read about the benefits of BM, as there is no way I can keep this up for 6 months. Feel I can't care for or enjoy her properly when I'm tied to the pump. And yes, I've had loads of support from local BF clinic (have also paid experts to help) but to no avail. Seeing a speech therapist soon. Has anyone else had a similar experience with a happy ending? Or am I kidding myself that it's suddenly going to click?

Oh Havana, I am sorry you are having such a rotten time. Breastfeeding can be a nightmare, can't it? Very, very, very impressed you've spent seven weeks expressing, wow. (I never got the hang of it).
As far as the benefits of breastmilk go, yes it is good, but you've given her a briliant start, don't beat yourself up if you want to stop. Only a minority of UK babies are breastfed past six weeks so you are already in front, IYSWIM. Someone once posted a link to a site which listed the benefits of breastfeeding day by day and week by week which I found really encouraging; by seven weeks you've made such a difference to your baby, it's a huge achievement. And there was another thread on modern formula milk not being so bad in the scheme of things ? turns out people my age (mid-30s) were often fed watered-down Carnation, would you believe! Certainly formula contains all sorts of things we didn't get, LCPs (essential fatty acids), for example.
I can't give you a similar experience with a happy ending because I didn't express, but I can sympathise because I really, really struggled with breastfeeding and certainly didn't have everything sorted by seven weeks.

Havana....this sounds so wearying....I am amazed and in awe you are hanging on in there. The 'whole day taken up' is the worst of long-term expressing for many mothers.

You can get support from these sites - they are US based, but I don't know of anything quite like them here.

good article about long term expressing

email support group for mothers doing this

I expect your baby has been checked out for tongue tie? Maybe this is what the speech therapist will look for.

And you've tried skin to skin and co-bathing?

One thing I'd say is that if you do decide to stop, you can still enjoy the closeness of putting your baby to the breast even if she doesn't take it....and that can be comforting for you both.

I have, by the way, known mothers whose babies have just 'clicked' several weeks down the line.

JulieF who posts on these boards had several weeks of exactly your experience and she is now bf just wonderfully - hope she sees your post.

Hope you get lots more help and info.

Hi Havannah, I really feel for you. I had to express for 5 weeks as firstly my ds completely refused to latch on, then he wasn't feeding effectivly. Finding out that your baby has lost So much weight is incredibly scary and upsetting.

It is incredibly hard I know but it is possible to get through it. Have you got an electric double pump if not you really need one it makes such a difference.

Also have you got much support, by which I mean someone to come and sit with you and help practically with things like cooking etc. I also had a 2 year old to look after and the poor thing was sat in front of Cbeebies all day every day.

I notice from your post that you are using bottles. I was advised to avoid using bottles until ds had learnt how to feed from the breast. Instead I used special infant feeding cups (you could also use the top off a bottle). This avoids the baby getting nipple teat confusion.

Him learning to feed was a very sudden thing. Suddenly with no warning at all he latched on with a vengeance. No-one ever quite knew why he wasn't feeding, maybe he had a bad experience at the breast, was too small/sleepy, I just don't know. Dh kept telling me that I must face the fact that he wasn't going to feed, I am so glad he was proved wrong.

There did come a point where I had to say I need to use some formula. I decided to let dh to give the night feed as formula to cut out expressing in the middle of the night. I felt at the time it was better to do that can give up completely, it just gave me the impetus to carry on that little bit longer.

A few practical points. Your breastmilk won't go off, ebm can be kept at room temp for about 5-6 hours (unlike formula which is 1 hour). When I was using freshly pumped milk I only used to put it into the fridge after this amount of time to avoid having to warm it up.

You also only need to sterilise the pump itself once in the morning and once in the evening.

Try just to take each day at a time don't think of 3 months, 6 months or whatever, just get through today.

Ultimately I can't tell you what to do it has to be your choicebased on what you feel is best for you and your family. I just wanted to let you know it is possible to gwt through it as when it was happening to me I felt like I was the only one, had stumped all the experts and there would be no end to it all.

havana, my ds did not take to bf at all. he just wouldn't latch on and lost weight i received limited help from midwives and none from nct. anyway he went onto formula at 12 days (felt like 12 years!!) slept for 4 hrs and woke up happy! i did feel a bit gutted for a while but soon realised that he was much happier for being formule fed. he is now a happy healthy 3 1/2 yr old

what i am trying to say is, you have done fantastically to bf till 7 wks and you are not a failure if you now choose to bottle feed.

i wish you lots of luck whatever you decide

Dear Havana,

Sometimes babies take longer to get going with bf. The speech therpist may check for tongue tie. Also there could be an issue with flat nipples (have you had any soreness) making latching on difficult for baby? using a breastshield for upto 15mins before feeding can help draw the nipple out. Also the suction on an expressing pump just before feeding can do this. Sometimes light compression on the breast surrounding the areola can help the nipple to be drawn out.

The soft palette of the babys mouth could be shaped in a way that is difficult for it to achieve a latch that enables milk to be easily sucked from nipple. This could resolve as the baby gets bigger.

Skin to skin contact is calming for mother & baby. Co-sleeping is also helpful in demand bf - enabling the baby to feed whilst mother bf and sleeps at same time. Take a babymoon when you spend a whole day in bed just feeding and cuddling dd. I acknowledge all your effort with bf - wish you lots of best wishes xxx

Hi, thanks so much for all the support and practical advice and weblinks (this is the first time I've ever posted on a website and I was a bit scared!) There was talk of a short tongue but it's definitely not a tongue tie - I think it's more that she's not using it properly (I don't think it comes down properly, and it never really comes out).

I'm not massively anti-formula or anything - I was formula fed and never had a day off school (and yes, I had to give her some formula when she'd lost that much weight and I had hardly any milk to give her - that was the worst feeling ever). It's just that I soooo want to breastfeed, I find it really hard to accept that it might not happen. I fantasise about her feeding from me and coming off satisfied after 20 minutes, and it makes me cry because it's so far from my experience . I've probably become unhealthily fixated by it, but it's all I've got to think about these days!

I can't face cup-feeding, it's hard enough to get her to drink a bottle, and after 7 weeks the damage is probably done anyway. I know the milk is okay for 6 hours, but isn't there something about it not being so good after it's mixed with the baby's saliva? It would be great if someone could tell me that's not an issue.

Have tried drawing out the nipple with breast shield/expressing, I don't think that's the problem (in fact she seems to feed better when I'm a bit engorged). Have also had one or two 'babymoons' but it didn't turn out as nice as it sounds - after hours she eventually gets frustrated because she's still hungry, and I feel like a fraud. I'm also very paranoid about her losing weight again, and me losing my milk supply again (if I don't express) because she's not stimulating enough.

Yep, I've got a giant hospital pump, I'm sitting at it right now (thank goodness for my hands free bra!). JulieF, out of interest, how long did it take before you were breastfeeding your baby direct? I'm probably mad asking that and getting my hopes up. I'd kind of said in my head I would do this for three months, and yesterday that just seemed like three years. I don't want to wish her babyness away, and you are dead right, I should just take each day as it comes. I just can't help comparing myself with the girls from my antenatal class - out and about and breastfeeing in public etc. Whereas I can only 'breastfeed' armed with slings and pillows, knowing I'll have to bottlefeed as well and by the time I've done that it'll be time to express again.

Have started comfort eating as well, which probably isn't helping my mood. Unfortunately I don't have family around so no practical help in the daytime - I'm dead impressed you did it with a toddler JulieF! I know exactly what you mean about feeling like you are the only person in the world it's happening to. My husband has been really supportive but he now thinks that something should change, for my own sake. I'm at least going to wait to see the speech therapist before I make any decisions.

Sympathise very much - sounds awful Havana.

My Dd was always a good feeder, but my milk supply was a problem. despite feeding round the clock for weeks, and getting loads of fsmily help to make sure i was eating properly etc. Dd was putting on very little weight, and was visibly frantic with hunger. We ended up bringing in some formula at five weeks (at which point Dd gained 8oz and finally regained her birthweight - phew!).

Now Dd 3 months, and about 50/50 BM/FM. Been frustrated at the lack of advice for how to mix effectively - don't believe that it is as clear cut as the bf counsellors would have you believe. I'm trying to maintain the supply - build up if poss. To that end, I'm trying to not make the bottle too easy. I've kept Dd on the slowest flow teats (they're already much easier than my milk!). also been using those nobbly variable flow ones - think they seem to require a similar action to bf. I'm fairly stingy with the bottles - try to make sure that she really does need the top up (albeit this strategy means more tears if I misjudge & she gets v. frustrated). Don't know if these things are helping to keep her working on the breast - as I said, been frustrated by the lack of constructive advice on mixing.

I used to pump every time she had a bottle,but it really is tough, so now am more lazy about it. Respect to you for keeping going so long.

Definitely understand what you mean about being envious of the 'milky cow' mums who can feed their baby in public (with a faint glow righteousness ) while relaxing and chatting with friends . I know that straight after feeding Dd will be very angry, until I bring out bottles. Also, that there will be a battle of wills to make sure that she is draining me properly b4 she get a top up. Don't bf in public any more, cos that def makes me feel inadequate - although bringing out the top ups at M&B group also makes me feel like a cop-out! Can't win!

& all the sterilising! At one point was doing about 12 bottles a day, with endless 2 oz feeds (half of which went off) to make sure I didn't over feed her formula...

Also been slightly fixated on it. I think dh is a saint for not screaming when yet another bf conversation begins. At times seriously wondered if persevering was the best thing for Dd. certainly b4 we started formula, all she did was eat (was sleeping about 8 hours a day, mostly in post prandial cat naps), which was tough on me and couldn't have been pleasant for her/good for her development.

Know that your problem is slightly different (and sounds much tougher), so don't know if hearing my expereience is useful to you - but wanted to write as how you were feeling struck a chord with me. Sorry for v. long post!

As to how long to keep going - well the bf counsellors made me think that when I brought in formula it would be very quick for milk to dry up, then I almost quit at 2 months, then again almost quit at 12 weeks - now proud that I've managed to keep going but won't beat myself up about it if it goes. Feel that I've worked v.hard at it & already in minority. Evidently formula isn't exactly toxic waste - think there is an element of 'brainwashing' from the bf mafia to encourage people to get over the 'hump' of establishing bf.

btw - I read a lot around the issue when I was trying to 'fix-it', and I remeber something called a 'supplemental feeding system'. The idea is that to formula/EBM bottle hangs round your neck, then you have tubes that go down, and are fixed on yuor nipple. Then the baby is stimulating your breasts while she feeds. Also supposed to help the baby get the idea that breast are for milk (i.e. not get too used to bottles). never seen one in a shop - think I read it in Dr Spock, which would mean that it may be something you can only get in the US.

The supplemental nursing system is available in the uk

here

You can read an experience of using it

here

and there are more if you google on supplementary or supplemental nursing system.

It is fiddly, but people do use them!

You might want to talk to someone before using one, as it might bring in another layer of complexity, which may be not what you need at the moment.

Don't assume that mothers who breastfeed in public are all brilliant at it; I breastfed in public (otherwise would never have been able to leave the house) but was always very, very self-conscious because I always had to use the 'new mum' hold where you hold your breast as well as the baby (you know, shaping your nipple with one hand). Don't think anyone saw very much, combination of T-shirt, hand and baby probably didn't reveal anything but made me very awkward, esp. when everyone else was able to just latch the baby on and have at least one hand free. And I always needed cushions or something to raise ds up, just like early b/f, used to use my change bag if we were out and about. Whenever I tried to let go, the latch would go wrong and it would hurt.
So what I'm trying to say is just because they feed in public doesn't mean they are experts who are brilliant at it. I wasn't.

Hi again - Kif, thanks so much for telling me about your experience. Yes the problem is different but I think alot of what we are going through is the same - it feels like an endless game. For me it's whether I keep my boobs nice and full for another BF attempt or take my chance to express while she feeds. Or whether to stop BF at all so I can try to establish SOME kind of routine with the bottle feeding. I'm onto the size 2 avent teats, but maybe that's a mistake and I should have stayed on the size ones. But on the other hand, if she's not great at feeding anyway, I don't want to make it difficult for her! I know EXACTLY what you mean about wondering if it's the best thing for her. I feel like that too. Okay so DD is getting my breastmilk, but she's certainly not getting the best of me - and I begin to wonder who I'm really doing this for. Is it for me (so I can keep my BF dream alive, eventually have the convenience of BF, not ever have to explain myself to people who ask me about feeding etc), or is it for her? As for bonding, she certainly likes being at the breast, but (unless it's giving me a chance to lie down) I just end up feeling impatient and frustrated and sad as she lies there.

By the way eddm, yes I'm sure BF in public isn't the greatest thing ever (I'm sure if I ever get the hang of it I'll be mortified getting my boobs out in M&S), but I can't help seeing the whole thing with rose coloured spectacles. I've even found myself thinking I'd gladly swap problems with someone with cracked and bleeding nipples (I'm only saying that to show how extreme my feelings are - I'm not undermining the pain or saying that I could cope with these, if you see what I mean).

Yeah I've heard about those nursing systems but to be honest I think that would make me feel like even more of a fraud when BFing than I already do. And as you say Tiktok, it's just another thing to think about. Don't think it's for me.

Kif, well done for perservering this long, and sorry to hear about your milk supply. For me it's just so bonkers that I've got the milk (have a freezer full now) but DD can't get at it.
If I stopped putting her to the breast for a week or two, just to save time/try to establish more of a routine, would she forget how to do it? I've got to do something.

doh - i meant take my chance to express while she sleeps...

Don't know - but at least you've got one part of the jigsaw sorted, as you know you can maintain supply by pumping. As other posters have said, Dd may grow out of it.

On the 'milk going off point', I believe you are correct re: it goes off more quickly when the baby has touched it. I think the protocol is that an hour after the baby has started the warmed formula feed it is off. H/w that can probably be extended if the milk is unheated and/or EBM (which has mild antibacterial properties). I've heard people claim that EBM can stay in the body of the fridge for up to 72 hours (though I'm sceptical! but still...), compared to 24 hours for formula feeds made up, so clearly it keeps better (and that prob holds for started feeds too).

Glad you found my story helpful - quite cathartic to write about the whole thing (although hate talking about it in the flesh because it is all such a drawn out mess that takes so much explaining - and everyone always comes back with the 'it's all down to supply&demand' chestnut).

Best of luck with everything

Hey Havana, I was trying to reassure you that people who breastfeed in public aren't necessarily very good at it or finding it straightforward. Yes, cracked and bleeding nipples and mastitis are agony (for some weeks every feed made my toes curl) but I think I was lucky not to go through your experience. Really don't think I would have continued to try to breastfeed if I were in your shoes so bl**dy well done that woman, take a bow!

Thanks Kif and eddm - eddm it is good for me to have these reminders that breastfeeding isn't all a bed of roses. Have a BFing friend who hasn't slept more than 2 hours at a stretch since ds was born 8 weeks ago - I'm not sure how long I'd have lasted with that. The only good thing I can say about my own experience is that my nipples have remained intact (so far anyway). If that changed, I think that would be it for me.

Havana, I hope that things get better for you and dd soon. You have had some excellent advice from people who know their stuff. So keep on keeping on

And this is by way of 'other' support. If all else fails, don't panic, don't beat yourself up and if you have to bottle feed do so without guilt! I have just spent the last half hour dancing with my wonderful ds, now aged 4, who is healthy and happy and wonderful and was bottle fed from the age of two months.

None of this is written to be 'anti' breast feeding, and I accept that it is the best, but when it sometimes fails the alternative is perectly acceptable.

Good luck and I do hope that things improve.

Agree with every word, HMB, no-one should be made to feel bad about the way they feed their baby.

Thanks everyone. Was having a really bad time on Friday night when I started this thread. This morning I had a bath with DD, she weed on me and we didn't get on too well with the feeding as I was afraid of drowning her, but it was nice anyway. Then I fed her on dry land and it seemed to go pretty well on both boobs. Not brilliantly - glugs pretty spaced out compared with the glugs we get from bottle feeding - but she only took 80mls from the bottle afterwards and then went for a big sleep (she'd normally have up to 180mls/7oz? with a few screaming/sleeping breaks).

The occasional positive experience like this is why I carry on. But my dad (a doc) said the first few weeks are the most important in terms of the benefits of breastmilk, but if it starts interfering with your enjoyment of your baby, it might be time for a change. And it certainly is doing that - not right now (having a good day) but much of the time.

Is there anyone out there who is going through the same thing, or went through it? Any miracle babies who latched on 'with a vengeance' like JulieF's, beyond a couple of months? I heard from a couple of friends that if it hasn't happened within 40 days it's not going to happen. Anyone else heard that?

Havana, whatever you decide to do, I wouldn't worry about the frequency of the 'glugs' - remember, when your baby sucks at the breast, the breastmilk often continues to come out of its own accord (hence the 'spraying' phenomenon!) so your baby won't need to continue sucking in the way she does with a bottle.

Hi, Havana, so sorry to hear you are going through such a hard time. Just wanted to say it sounds like you are doing BRILLIANTLY giving your dd breastmilk for so long when it is causing so much hurt for you. I had a very similar experience with my dd - to cut a long story short she was 5 wks prem, just wouldn't latch on at first - was given a bottle on paed's orders on 2nd night when blood sugars dropped and from then on she wasn't really interested in my boobs. I expressed for 5 weeks and fed her ebm from a bottle (just too impractical to keep cup feeding). I was getting so depressed by this point - every time I expressed it would hurt me so much that she wasn't actually bfing. Just cried all the time, really. I gave up at this point and let my milk dry up. In a way it was a relief to stop the agony but if I had the chance again, I think I'd keep trying for longer and get more help (I didn't really think anyone could help me as bf counsellor at hospital couldn't). It sounds like you're doing much better with your dd and she is latching on. Have you tried nipple shields?
Just wanted to let you know that you are doing so well to give your dd breastmilk - I really really hope things start to improve for you soon. Lots of love, Dinny

Hi there - Aloha, you are right, I shouldn't obsess about the glugs, I know it is different. Hard not to make comparisons though - if only I knew how much she was getting from my boobs!!

Dinny, thanks for sharing your experience - that sounds sooo hard. I think you did amazingly well to keep expressing for so long when she wasn't even interested in your boobs. For a couple of weeks I was advised not even to try dd at my breast as she would get so upset, so the only time she was on was when the bf counsellors at the clinic put her on for me. That was a bit of a nightmare, and in that sense, we have made progress. At least she likes to be there now, even if it's for comfort rather than a good feed.

It's interesting to hear that you now wish you'd kept your milk going for longer. That's what I'm worried about. In some ways, I think it would be a huge relief for me to stop expressing now, but I'm worried that I will just get really down about it. As long as I keep expressing I know that there is a faint chance that somewhere down the line dd and me will get it together. But in the meantime it's all a bit rubbish.

And I know that '5 weeks' or '7 weeks' doesn't sound a long time, but when you are living through it, it really seems forever. I mean if someone could guarantee that it would come together for me I would keep going no problem - it's just the thought that it might never happen that really gets me down. In the meantime though she is getting my milk (and I'm building up a supply in the freezer) so that, as you all say, is a good thing.

I suppose I find it hard that there is no explanation for what is happening to us, she was 8 days late so no problem with the sucking reflex (or shouldn't be anyway). Alarm bells should have rung for me when the midwives couldn't get her on immediately after she was born, but I was a bit of a wreck, then lost lots of blood, so that kind of took over everyone's attention. I feel mad that I was then assured she was feeding okay and I went home thinking I was a great breastfeeder - and it didn't even hurt! - only to find a week later that the poor child was half starved. I think that's akin to sending parents home with a dodgy carseat. I'm not saying that they could have sorted the problem back then, just that I could have been expressing from the start instead of worrying now about the effect of her losing all that weight, and whether or not she got her colostrum.

I could never have believed beforehand that I would be so very upset or emotional about this - I was crying all the time at first, now it comes and goes. It's just the worst feeling isn't it Dinny? At a rational level you know you are doing your very very best, but at another level you feel like you are not a proper mother woman or mother or something (well that's how I feel sometimes. I even feel upset looking at the nice flowery nursing bras in Mothercare - when I was pregnant I had looked forward to buying these once I'd got the hang of it. Didn't occur to me for a second that I'd never get there).

Sorry, I am like a broken record. Be grateful to hear anyone else's experiences.

Havana - sounds like you are listening to a lot of people! The 40 days thing - huh? Human beings don't work like that!! There is no cut off date beyond which something isn't ever going to happen - who can tell???

There is no way of knowing how much your baby is getting from your breasts, and that is a pain, I know, when you long to know! But even if you could know, it would not help you know whether that is the 'right' amount for her at that time. Instead, you need to go on her behaviour and her response.

The bath thing sounds as if it has been a real positive move - you fed her in the bath and outside of it, she took only a small amount from the bottle (comparatively) and had a contented sleep. That is excellent....and maybe this could be tried again.

It's far, far more important that she fed and enjoyed it than the precise amount she took.

Aloha is right about the glugs. Sucking from a teat is different.

The explanation of what happened is that the people whose job it was to check feeding was going ok reassured your inappropriately. Grrrrrr to them - I agree, it's the same as sending you home with a dodgy car seat. This can mess up the bf, because the baby has less energy than she needs to feed effectively and stimulate a good milk supply.

Hope you feel a bit better after your low day on Friday.

Havana,
Had similar problems with my first (now 8). Despite sitting in a breastfeeding clinic for weeks didn't really get anywhere and had to start mixed feeding by 4 weeks as she was "failing to thrive" and hospitalisation was threatened. I continued to put her to the breast at each feed followed by a top-up which I found depressing but knew was necessary (I also expressed regularly). At 6 months(!) she gave up the bottle and breast-fed contentedly and continued to do so until she was 2 years old and I was pregnant with number 2.

Had problems initially with no.2 but she started to gain weight at about 6 weeks (huge support from midwife) and never had a bottle of formula (cup fed expressed milk in the early days). She fed for 21/2 years.

Number 3 was super from the start - now 17 months and showing no signs of giving up.

I must say that with hindsight I wish I had been more relaxed about it all the first time. I was miserable for so long and felt a complete failure which of course wasn't the case. I allowed myself to be put under pressure when I should have been enjoying my baby (and thinking of myself and my husband). I was delighted when it clicked but so regretted the time wasted. Make the decision for yourself and don't let anyone make you feel less of a mother - not everyone gets it the first time and you know how hard you have tried. Congratulations for giving it your all - just make sure you enjoy her (and yourself) too.

Hi Havana
Just wanted to add my support and congratulations to you for what you've done so far. My experience was similar in some ways - had a lovely big healthy baby, was reassured in the hospital that I was feeding perfectly, went home expecting to be bf for the next year, and by 7 weeks had given up completely. DD just didn't put on enough weight and I'm still not sure why. At the time I was going through all the trauma of expressing/giving formula I was convinced I was the only person this had ever happened to and that every other mum in the world was getting it right. It wasn't until weeks later that I realised mixed feeding is really common. I don't really blame myself for giving DD some formula - she definitely needed it - but I do regret not being able to keep some bf going, even if just for comfort. At the time it seemed like it wasn't worth struggling to keep going because my breastmilk wasn't doing her any good at all, but now I really wished I had persevered, even just for a "token" feed in the evening or for the sake of being able to put her to the breast for a quick drink in the hot weather. I think your point about your daughter "not getting the best of me" is very valid, and if you aren't enjoying her because of the struggle to breastfeed then maybe you should think about changing the balance a bit and giving her enough formula to keep her happy and you sane. That way you'll have more chance of keeping some breastfeeding going, instead of doing what I did, which was get so upset and exhausted and irrational that I gave up completely. If you're coping with all the expressing etc then definitely keep going because the benefits are huge - all I'm saying is don't let it get you down to the point where you feel desparate enough to give up altogether, because if you do you'll regret it. It's better to make some compromises now and maybe give more formula than you want, so that you'll be well enough to bf in the future when your daughter does get the hang of it.
BTW, I agree with the point made in another post about the lack of information on mixed feeding- why is there NO mention of this in ante-natal breastfeeding classes??

Sorry I havn't been able to get on for a couple of days. YOU ARE DOING BRILLIANTLY, I really admire you. I know what you mean when you say 5 or 7 weeks not sounding long but when you are living through it....

You wanted to know a bit more about when ds first went to the breast. When he was born he wasn't overly interested in feeding but things seemed to pick up around day 2-3. However he started to fight the breast and then completely refused and went hysterical on day 5. Why I have no idea. We then found out he had lost a lot of weight.

When you were originally "helped" to b/f in hospital did anyone grab hold of her head and put her on. Babies really hate this and it could be an explanation. Also sometimes they are put off by a strong let down reflex.

I also had to not even put him to the breast for a few days to avoid the stress but slowly start to make it a positive experience. At first he would be content to lie there licking the occasional drip then after a visit to the b/f clinic he latched on even though he didn't suck. He was 3 weeks by then.

He then started to feed better (or so I thought) my HV expressed reservation that he was on properly as she could see him sucking his cheeks in and she turned out to be right as he gained no weight.

You mentioned that he may be slightly short tongued. I beleive (tiktok will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure) that this can imrpve over time, he may just need to grow a little.

I wouldn't take much notice of the 40 day thing as it is impossible to know this. If I had given up at 4 weeks for example I would never have known that just a few days later he would feed.

On the support side is there a homestart scheme running near to you. Ask your HV, it was offered to me but I had lots of supportive friends who came to help me. Basically you are teamed with a volunteer who comes and helps out or just sits with you and talks. There is a thread on homestart somewhere that explains more. My HV also arranged a comprehensive programme of visits to local b/f support groups where I could sit and have a cuppa, express without feeling self conscious and just talk to supportive mums.

Keep posting, don't worry about sounding like a broken record, use us as a sounding board. I'll try and check in every day or 2 to see how you are getting on.

Hello lovely people, thanks again for your support and the ideas here. Good to know you reckon the 40 days thing is claptrap, Tiktok. Yes the bath was good, but I think I will only try that when DH is around to help.

Yoyo, you must have the patience of a saint! I really can't see still sitting at this effing pump in 6 months time. Glad to hear it worked out for you eventually though, and you made the most of it.

Beatrice, I don't know what I'm going to do tomorrow, carry on the same most likely, but what you wrote is really really helpful. I suppose I've been seeing it as an all or nothing thing, when maybe it doesn't have to be. At the clinic they said I should express a minimum of 6 times in 24 hours but I've just cut it down to 5 and I'm going to see how that goes. I've got tonnes of milk in the freezer already so I wouldn't even have to give her formula for a while, even if I stopped producing enough (ran out of freezer containers a couple of days ago and it made me realise I'm producing way more than she takes - now I'm paraonid she's not eating enough). I suppose that all the time I have some milk, I can keep trying, and can build it up again if/when dd starts feeding effectively. BF clinic is on again this week after being off for a while, will talk to them about how I can cut some corners to make life a bit easier, while still keeping my options open.