Still can't BF at 7 weeks - feeling gutted

[Havana]

Am totally gutted that I can't breastfeed. In spite of my doubts, the hospital staff assured me my daughter was feeding fine, but she lost about 15 per cent of body weight in first week and my milk almost dried up completely. Have been expressing ever since, and putting her to the breast daily in the hope that we'll eventually get the hang of it. Seven weeks on, we're getting nowhere, and I'm feeling increasingly desperate and sad. She has now started making a real performance over bottle feeding (we don't have 'feeds' - she just grazes all day and I get really paranoid about the milk going off) and our whole day is taken up with pumping/feeding. I'm insanely jealous of people who can BF, feel sick when I read about the benefits of BM, as there is no way I can keep this up for 6 months. Feel I can't care for or enjoy her properly when I'm tied to the pump. And yes, I've had loads of support from local BF clinic (have also paid experts to help) but to no avail. Seeing a speech therapist soon. Has anyone else had a similar experience with a happy ending? Or am I kidding myself that it's suddenly going to click?

Hello everyone.

Can I butt in and ask mears (or tiktok) a question?

Dd 15wks, mixed fed from 5wks. Initially 1 bottle, the following month did 50:50, last couple of weeks have seen a formula escalation/Dd starting to reject breast. Now at about 70:30.

Think that my initial failure to establish milk supply was to do with hormones messed up (took me 13 weeks to stop bleeding). Also started on fenugreek.

Is there any point striving to increase milk supply at this late stage? Or should I wind down gracefully?

How hard will it be? Do I have to be obsessive about feeding every 2/3 hours, or could the fenugreek help me even if I'm feeding less frequently? How long is it likely to take?

Questions questions... hoping someone might have some pointers/thoughts. I'm finding it hard to let go of the idea of feeding - still down about it not working out. However, can't help but think that re=establishing at this stage is obsessive and 'more about me than her'. Can imagine her aged 5 with me saying "no pudding til you've had your breast milk - I'll build up my supply yet"

She's shot up from the 2nd centile to the 50th so I'm less worried about the weight issue in short term (tho' 75th height, so still skinny).

Havana - good to hear from you again. Sorry you've been finding it tough - hope it gets better soon. I got fenugreek from Holland and Barrett, but wouldn't bother as your milk supply sounds fine. You only take it for a short while to 'kickstart' things. I wouldn't take any non essential herbs or potions while feeding - thought hard b4 using any myself.

Kif - essentially you can increase your supply at any stage of breastfeeding. The more you feed, the more milk you make. As I posted to Havana, I think much of the problem is confidence. When a baby wants to have extended time at the breast, it does not mean that you are not producing enough milk. It means that the baby wants to be there. Breastfeeding is more than just the transfer of milk - it is a comfort for the baby. Babies will invariably take a bottle of formula after a feed whether they are hungry or not because it something different. How many times have you been stuffed full after a main course to find suddenly you have room for a dessert? It is because it is different. If you want to increase your breastfeeds and reduce the formula ones you can. Yopu need to be prepared to allow your baby to feed when they want. You can also reduce your formula feeds by an ounce per day until they are phased out. Depends what you want to do really. Excusive breastfeeding is a possibility at any stage. There rare no hard and fast answers about how long it will take. What is definately needed is the support of a counsellor to reassure you through the process. It can be done.

Meant to say that with milk stimulants, it is still essential to stimulate the breasts at least 3 hourly. The best stimulant is actually the baby but if they are not co-operating then remember to hand express prior to using a breastpump. I have no experience of Feugreek but I have experience of Domperidone (Motilium) which we give to mothers with milk production problems at our unit. The dosage is 10mg, 3 times a day for 10 days. It can be bought over the counter and it's main use is for stomach bloatedness. A side effect is increased prolactin levels which increases milk supply. Howeve, it shouldnot be used as a substitute for 3 hourly feeds at least when aiming to increase milk supply. HTH.

thanks mears. In your opinion (unofficial line) is there much to be gained in terms of her wellbeing?

why hand exp. b4 pumping? Chose fenugreek as was worried about stuff getting into milk - seemed safer. (I note the irony).

Didn't enjoy experience with local bf support groups (one NCT one HV). Neither seemed to be able to help with more than the classic problems such as positioning, feed more often etc - only found out about fenugreek/domp. recently from mumsnet. Found it v. hard work to convince that I really had a supply issue - v. patronising, dispiriting, and ultimately useless as no solutions offered. Needed proper help, not 'emotional support' and continual reinforcement of the standrad script Re: 'supply and demand' etc.. When i repeatedly asked about mixed feeding the best i got was 'if you must, i suppose you must'... Grrr - as you see, still a bit wound up about it all. In my M&B group, mostly bf, but quite a few mixed fed/heading swiftly to formula. Found NCT support group v. intimidating with the dozens of milky mums milling about - and I'm thinck skinned as far as hormonal 1st time mums go. Phrase 'preaching to the converted' springs to mind - think they're missing their key constintuency.

Sorry - I digressed wildly. What you get with being online at this time of might - brain mush.

Meant to just say thanks for getting back to me so quick.

Havana - sorry for using your post as a rant pulpit... I'll sleep now - will wake rational and less verbose.

Was inspired to get the poor mite up for a midnight feast, seeing as I wasn't sleeping. hence typos. Isn't it fun when they eat without waking? Dd has been rolling to side virtually from birth, as I'd put her next to me when I got v. tired, and she learn to 'self serve' by latching herself on and off. Then we could both be half asleep!

Yikes - DD has been sleeping (for a few weeks now, with few exceptions) through the night. Until recently I was getting up in the night to express, cos I had to (boobs were set to explode). But now I'm sleeping through too. is this a bad mistake? I thought it was me getting in tune with her, rather than the pump, but will it mean my milk supply will go down altogether?

Last night I expressed at about 9.30, kind of to make up for the small amount she took from the bottle. She didn't want feeding again until 8.30 this morning!! Nearly 12 hours without stimulating milk... Should I be waking her for a feed in the night? Or should I keep expressing? The last time I did it at 3am was the one time she woke looking for food shortly afterwards, and I felt very empty, and she was very unsettled for ages (in my mind, still hungry).

You are right, my confidence is shot, I had thought that if I ever ended up bfing direct I'd be the happiest woman alive, instead I'm a nervous wreck. The chiropractor advised me to drink Guinness to up my supply, not sure about that one. But yes, you are right, should keep dd at boob, but sometimes she gets mad and I think it's cos she can't get enough milk out. Round and round we go.

Thanks for the new messages, and rant away!

Have absoluetly no advice for any BFing mums as failed miserabley with all 3 DS's here but jsut wanted to say that if I'd seen a thread this this when either of them was a baby (ds3 is 9 months) I would have been inspired to keep on trying.

Only really skimmed through the thread really but Havanna( sorry for anyone I've missed), you would have been an inspiration to me and I'm actually very jealous of you for having the will power to carry on. I often feel sad that I couldn't BF and seeing a BFing mum really pulls at my heart-strings. Well done for......god, I don't know......just well done for being stronger and better at it than me

Havana, actually I don't know if you need to express in the night. If you are happy your milk supply is fine and your dd is growing, then you are probably ok. If there is some doubt, then there is no doubt your milk supply will benefit from middle of the night stimulation...but that might be a step too far when you need an unbroken night. You have done brilliantly, and it is paying off....only you can weight the pros and cons.

Kif, I think you have hit on a real weakness of breastfeeding support groups and of breastfeeding support in the UK, in fact.

Most mothers only need extra support and some basic info about how supply and demand works, friendship and encouragement.

But there are some genuinely clinical issues to do with a history of a poor start to breastfeeding, or the use of medication, or the long term effects of a baby on formula and not breastmilk where relactation is needed, and other situations. Obviously these situations need support as well, but just as important is the knowledge about preserving bf in a crisis, aids, meds, whatever....

In your average support group, the expertise and knowledge just isn't there. Lactation support is actually a clinical specialism and it is very hard to access in the UK. You can get it, sometimes privately.

Havanna - your story sounds very similar to my friend's baby. Congratulations for continuing as long as you have. On your question about night feed, it is not the norm for a baby to sleep all night at tha age of 7 weeks, but it can happen. For a baby breastfeeding beautifully and thriving, it is not a problem. For a baby with weight gain and feeding issues it is. As I said my friend was loath to waken her baby during the night but in the end she did because her dd was still not gaining weight and she found it gave her milk supply a dramatic boost within a few days. Her dd fed much better in the quiet of night and she also found that her baby fought her less during the day time feeds (arching back, pulling off, crying etc). She managed to turn the situation around and was exculsively breastfeeding her by 12 weeks. I cannot remember how long she continues to wake her during the night, but she did set her alarm clock to do it. Her dd did return to sleeping all night when she was older. For her own sanity though she preferred to give a full bottle feed of EBM at lunch time. I showed her how to hand express as she got very little expressing with a pump and the milk shot across the room!

You have plenty of milk and I think that you just need to keep away from the bottles at the moment. You could do what my friend did and give a bottle feed at lunch time if that is going to help your confidence. Try and give EBM that you have expressed instead of formula.

Kif - sorry you have not had great B/F support. Have you tried another soursce like the Breastfeeding Network since you have found that the NCT is not for you. The link is here

There are advantages to you and your baby to continue breastfeeding, however only you will now what your over-riding feelings are about it all. Some women find themselves in real personal conflict over breastfeeding difficulties and I would never condem anyone who decides that they prefer to formula feed. My issue is that women really need to get the best support possible and that is not always available.

Th reason I said about hand expressing first is that it is a better stimulant of breast milk production than using a mechanical pump alone, as is massaging the breast from the top towards the nipple to encourage milk flow into the resevoirs. By that I do not mean vigorous massage but just rolling a clenched fist along the surface of the breast, including the underside for a few minutes prior to hand expressing. Before hand expressing, feel for the milk resevoirs by feeling down the breast until you feel pea like swellings in the region of the areaol. Some women find then at the adge of the arealo, some find then above or below. When located, place your thumb above and your first 2 fingers on the underside of te breast then gently squeeze. After a few moments the milk should start to letdown. Once the milk has started to flow you can either continue to hand express or switch to the breastpump. My friend actually found hand expressing much quicher and effective (as did I) and sge got more milk. Remember when expressing, either by hand or pump, to keep switching from breast to breast as the milk flow slows. This speeds up the process of expressing because as you express on one breast, the milk is also letting down on the opposite breast.

Hope this advice will be of some use for you. Mumsnet is a great support as there are mothers here who can give you their experiences too.

Agree with Tiktok, no need to wake only to express during the night, but might be useful to actually breastfeed. This was the experience of my friend but of course there are individual solutions to all problems.

Might give that a go tonight - breastfeeding sleepy baby I mean. Seems weird to set my alarm for a date with a pump while my baby sleeps soundly upstairs (this is what I've been doing for weeks though, 'til recently. Don't mind the half hour pumping, my problem is that I often lie awake for hours afterwards).

Yep I know it's weird for a baby to sleep so long at night at this stage but the HVs and people at the breastfeeding clinic assured me it's not a problem. Thing is, ever since she lost all that weight at first, her weight shot up, so they aren't too concerned about that. But when I get her weighed on Tuesday I will have a clear idea of the impact of exclusive breastfeeding (I've really not given her much bottle at all this week, three days with none at all). It's all breastmilk too, have a freezer full of the stuff.

Thanks everyone for the encouragement and advice.

Emmatmg believe me I'm not stronger than you, I think I have just become a bit obsessive about this, I've put so much into it that I don't want to stop now, and sometimes I wonder if I'm doing it for DD or for me. And if it does work out for me and I become a happy breastfeeder I am dead aware that my good news story will make other people sad, and so I will hardly want to tell it. I breastfed in a pub today, last week I breastfed under a tree at the top of a hill (I had no choice!), and while it should have been my dream come true - I would have been jealous if I'd seen someone else doing what I was doing - it didn't feel like that! Sorry, am tired, can't say what I'm trying to, just don't make people like me make you feel sad, you did the right thing for you and your wee ones at the time - and I'll be honest, if I have another baby and it doesn't work out in the first week or two, I'm not going through this again. I have been very lucky to have had the support of the clinic and certain people, without this (and the free loan of expensive equipment) I would never have carried on this long.

Right have waffled long enough and need to get to bed... am very relieved that nobody suggested I get up at 2am, 5am, 8am to express!

So glad all seems to be going better Havana, that's great news. I agree with you about not going through this again with no. 2 - I think dh and I will have to seriously think about it if it all goes pear shaped again - is it worth all the crying and stress? Afterall; happy mummy = happy baby....
I'm based in the US and found More Milk Plus at a healthfood shop.....I think the suggestion of Holland & Barrett was a good one by a fellow MNer.
My dd was sleeping 11-7 at this age (and then the magic 7-7 at about 12 weeks (God bless GF even if she is bonkers!)) so it's alright!! Agree with the suggestion of feeding in the night if it'll help with your milk supply - you can then drop this feed again when you're happy with your milk production.
Continued good luck to you (and all others struggling with BF - it is worth it in the end, I promise!)

Dd (15wks) sleeps 10-4! Best ever - 10-6. Think it must be hangover from our feeding marathons - MIL making dark mutterings about routines.

Good luck Havana. my tips for dream feeds are to keep lights off (no more than TV), have boob out by the time you pick up baba and only wake her enough to suckle (my Dd won't even open her eyes if I do it right). Then again, your Dd doesn't sound like a wakey-monster so perhaps she can fully wake and then drop off to sleep...

mears and tiktok - thanks for the advice and the support. I'd become a little sloppy with expressing, so I think I'll make more of an effort to ensure 3 hourly stimulation. I think setting the alarm is a step too far for me this late in the game. Realistically I think I'm aiming to slow down the escalation of formula, rather than to completely eliminate it. By my reckoning it is worth at least keeping a little going, in case Dd ever gets a gastric upset or somehting in the future...

With regards to BF support - they were all v. well meaning & commited - just frustrating experience in my particular case. Each time I'd really hoped they could tell me something new and 'fix' me. Been finding MN great support - amazing how much you can find out.

Hee hee! What a stink going on on the other BF thread (re:extended feeding)... BF issues really do get people going, don't they?

H - let us know how it goes. {hugs{}}

me again - doom and gloom - had her weighed at the bfing clinic and she hasn't gained weight in a week. in fact i think they were trying to protect my feelings, i have looked at the conversion chart and i think she actually lost an ounce. am getting her weighed again tomorrow at the HV clinic (better scales, more reliable) and will pay more attention to that, but it doesn't bode well does it?

at the clinic they told me to stick with it until thurs when we'll weigh her again and then come up with a plan (ie to go back to more expressing/bottle-feeding ebm). but they did think it was significant that she had her jabs during the week and said it's not uncommon for babies not to gain during that week.

ho hum. since we got home she was on my boob from 3.30 to 5.00, and i just know it's no good for most of that time (and i'm not convinced that she's there the rest of the time because she likes it - more because she is hungry).

the last two nights have woken her at about 5am for a sleepy feed, these have gone pretty well except she does wake up during/after and i lose out on a bit of sleep! still miles better than pumping.

so the saga continues... and every time she cries i will continue to fear it's because she isn't satisfied. argh!!!

Havana you should make sure you only get her weighed onthe same set of scales as there can be a difference of a few oz on different ones. Even the same scales in a different place can ake a difference.

To be honest its not always that useful having a baby weighed too much. You need to look at other signs as well. I agree with the HV that her jabs will make a difference.

I really do think its a matter of confidence with you. Your dd has gained far more weight than my ds did.

You have done so well, it would be such a shame to give up now after all you have been through.

yeah i know - i'm trying to ignore what happened today and brace myself for tomorrow's weigh-in, which will be plotted on her chart. other signs aren't bad, she is still doing plenty of nappies, she's alert and bonny and chubby, she's not in danger of wasting away any time soon!

i'm not going to give up - in my mind i've committed to giving her breastmilk for the first three months, no matter how she gets it - but i might have to accept that she won't get it all direct. on the bright side, she's definitely improved, so should continue to do so. but i may not be able to return this big brute of a pump just yet...

Havana - I agree about the scales. They should be digital ones on a flat surface and the baby should be weighed naked each time. Then you can compare,

But a plateauing of weight is not a disaster.

And you still have the option of waking/expressing in the night.....

You are doing well....and far better than you felt you were 2 weeks ago.

Havana - the weight issue is not a disaster. Different scales will record different weights. The friend I told you about had numerous weight losses, weight staying the same till eventually her DD started gaining which as I said before was once she got exclusive feeding established. It sounds as though you are getting good support from the B/F clinic. I do worry about excessive weighing though because it can be very counterproductive.
Please do not panic about prolonged feeding sessions. That is not abnormal for a breastfed baby. I am sure you will have been told by the supporters at the B/F clinic how to assess a good feed such as watching the pattern of sucking and listening for her swallowing when the milk lets down? Sometimes you have to take babies off the breast to get on with other things and recognising when you can do that is all part of the experience you gain as you go along. You are doing so well and it sounds as though you are getting there. Have faith

Jabs def make a difference - or at least did for us. Seemed as though Dd had 'taken the day off' from growing and spent 24hours fighting the infection - it made sense to me that she didn't put on much that week.

Re: long feeding - HMV have a sale on DVDs. Save you stewing while you feed. If you're a fan of 'Cold Feet' I have all five series (watched!) that am happy to lend. Has a lot about babies but not a single boob ... perhaps not the best inspiration, I s'pose.

btw - mears - spot the midnight feast! Taking bets on whether she will stay asleep....

Haven't read all of this thread and am late to it but just wanted to say that I went through what you did Havana with my first baby. He started off badly in hospital and I was mixed feeding for a few weeks but gradually tailed these off till he was completely b.fed. It was really really hard going and some nights I was up nearly all night trying to feed him. Also he liked to 'snack' during the day and it wasn't uncommon for him to feed every hour!

However once he got to about 3 months he just suddently seemed to 'get' it and it became much easier. Keep going you are doing great.

Also I'd not worry about another baby as my 2nd baby was so easy. Your milk supply is generally better with a 2nd and your confidence is better too.

Good luck

Hi Havana, hope the weigh in goes okay today. I reckon that babies weight gain is a bit like ours - you can have one or two really weird weeks where you eat loads and put on nothing or eat not much and put on weight so just one week isn't that important. Not got any advice about b/fing coz I didn't manage to establish it - just know how hard it is when your confidence in nourishing the lo is dented - even when he was being bottle fed I got scared if he fell asleep on the bottle that he was getting jaundiced again! Best of luck

well - got dd weighed again today and according to the HV clinic she actually gained a couple of ounces this week, and is still following that 50th centile line on the chart. obviously i am really happy about this, but her feeds today have been pretty rubbish! they were supportive at the clinic and pointed out that if i hadn't had her weighed for two or three weeks i would have been really impressed with the increase.

thanks for offering the loan of dvds kif, i love cold feet! no dvd player sadly, really must get dh to get me some decent vids from the library.

might see about doing one express a day, last thing at night, just so i know i'm always producing a bit more than she needs (which might make me generally milkier and make it easier for her to feed). have carried on with the sleepy feed at 5am, which seems to be working okay.

staff at the bfing clinic are great, trouble is they tend to see the best (morning) feed and they only ever see the start because they're run off their feet. if they could see me struggling for hours on end with floppy evening boobs that would be more useful!

great to hear everyone else's experiences though, thanks again, and you are right, if you told me i'd have been here two weeks ago i'd have been over the moon.

great news Havana. amazing how much difference another set of scales makes!