Still can't BF at 7 weeks - feeling gutted

[Havana]

Am totally gutted that I can't breastfeed. In spite of my doubts, the hospital staff assured me my daughter was feeding fine, but she lost about 15 per cent of body weight in first week and my milk almost dried up completely. Have been expressing ever since, and putting her to the breast daily in the hope that we'll eventually get the hang of it. Seven weeks on, we're getting nowhere, and I'm feeling increasingly desperate and sad. She has now started making a real performance over bottle feeding (we don't have 'feeds' - she just grazes all day and I get really paranoid about the milk going off) and our whole day is taken up with pumping/feeding. I'm insanely jealous of people who can BF, feel sick when I read about the benefits of BM, as there is no way I can keep this up for 6 months. Feel I can't care for or enjoy her properly when I'm tied to the pump. And yes, I've had loads of support from local BF clinic (have also paid experts to help) but to no avail. Seeing a speech therapist soon. Has anyone else had a similar experience with a happy ending? Or am I kidding myself that it's suddenly going to click?

How's it going Havana? - been wondering about you.

Hi Beatrice, thanks for asking. Things definitely don't seem as bleak as they did when I first posted. For one thing I was reading that other thread about the mum with premature twins who wanted to get breastmilk to them, it kind of put my problem into perspective a bit. I mean I've been expressing for more than six weeks now, so six more won't kill me. Just have to try not to think about how great our lives would be and how much more time there would be in the day if I could BF properly...

Had a good day today, had two visitors and made it to the shops - it's amazing how little things can feel like big achievements these days! Am seeing a speech therapist next Monday (though to be honest, having spoken to her, I doubt she'll be able to help).

Would find the whole expressing thing more manageable if bottle feeding her wasn't such a nightmare. I just haven't a clue what she wants, one minute she's arching her back and sucking her wee hand like she's starving, but a few mls of milk later and she's pulling away horrified, as if I'm trying to pump poison into her. After soothing her for a while (with maybe a sleep thrown in) she's crying for food again. And so it goes on.

Thanks again for your message, it's really helpful to hear from someone who has been in the same situation. I'm sorry that you regretted your decision as I know what it's like and I completely understand why you decided to call it a day. And it's kind of like a warning to me, cos I bet I would feel the same (I mean full of regret) if I did let the milk dry up now. Hope this makes sense, I am knackered - dd just managed to poo all over herself, her dad, and the sofa...

Very quickly as I have left dd in the house but have you considered craniual osteopathy? I tried it and it may or may not be a co-incidence but ds started to feed shortly afterwards. Its just the arching of the back etc sounds like it could be useful.

Whereabouts do you live, I'm wondeing if any mumsnetters know of any good support groups nearby for you. Getting out can be good for you and offer a little respite.

Another quick one - got loads and loads of tidying up to do - DS was (and still is) a bit of a pernickety bottle feeder - could take 1 hour to get 50 mls down him - what helped was experimenting with teats and holding him differently, so his head was in crook of my arm (I had been holding him too upright coz he was colicky/sicky).

Ohmygod, I've been toying with the idea of cranial osteopathy but didn't want to commit as we're a bit skint and I dont know if it would do any good. I know people find it helpful for colic but I couldn't work out how it would help with feeding (not that I understand how it helps with colic!) And she didn't have a traumatic birth or anything. I do have the number of a specialist here, I will call her tomorrow. Anyway it's only money, I have a feeling I will do it eventually, so might as well get on and do it now. Have got an appointment with a McTimoney paediatric chiropractor next week too, haven't got a clue what that is really but my mate is a student and got me a cheap appointment and it can't do any harm. But will ring the CO person tomorrow for sure. I realise it isn't guaranteed to help or anything, but if it worked for you JulieF (or maybe did) it's got to be worth a go.

Have gone back to using the newborn teats, hasn't solved all the problems but I don't think she gulps it down as much so is less likely to get wind/choke on it. She's giving dd a hard time right now. Sometimes I think I have her all confused by giving her the breast and the bottle. Anyway she's gone from 6lbs 15 to 10lbs 12 in six weeks, so at least she's getting it! (or is this because I'm inadvertently force feeding her?!?)

I do know a few other mums locally, and am happy to express in front of all of them! Also the BF clinic is on again this week - I think I may be beyond their help, but it is good to meet other people, some with similar problems.

Sorry for the long posts - I write when I'm expressing, so I'm very glad of mumsnet.

Havana,I could have written your post 9 months ago.I was determined to BF & was prepared for sore nipples ect,but not for a baby that refused the breast.I spent 6 miserable weeks feeling guilty & permanently attached to a breast pump,before I admitted defeat & gave her formula.

With hindsight,I wish I hadn't beat myself up about it so much.My Dr, & HV were amazed that I had persevered so long with expressing & said that most mums don't even give it that long.

Anyway,whatever you decide to do,don't feel guilty.My DD is 10 months now & has only had 1 cold in all that time,so formula feeding hasn't done her any harm.

Cheers Mirage - I know what you mean about being prepared for sore nipples and whathaveyou, it just didn't occur to me for a minute that I wouldn't be able to do it. My antenatal classes were brilliant, but that was the one thing they didn't prepare me for. It was made out that actually BFing isn't that hard and everyone can do it if they just try hard enough. And I think most people believe that, which is why I'm on the defensive before I've even stopped! And it just kills me at the BFing clinic, all the posters etc about why BFing is the greatest thing for you and your baby, and all the pics of earth mothers nursing.. and every website about BFing starts off with how great and bonding and wonderful it is... I mean I know they have to do that to encourage people who otherwise mightn't try it, and I know it's all true, but it's not much help to people who desperately want to do it but can't.
Glad your baby is so healthy, I was formula fed myself and barely had a day off school. I don't see formula as a really bad thing, just REALLY want to breastfeed, as much as anything for the convenience, the experience, and the not having to worry about sterility and amounts.
Sorry, that was going to be a quick message, and then I went off on one!

I think it's already been said but I had the problem of no milk. Happily stuck ds onto boob for the first week of his life, he appeared content but after his first weigh in was rushed to SCBU and was on a drip for a week to rehydrate him. I had no choice but to formula feed him or he would have died. I pumped for 14 weeks and on my best day ever got 15mls in 24hrs. I too felt gutted beyond belief. He is now 7 months and doing well although still on a formula designed for preterm babies as he had so much weight to catch up. I understand the compulsion to try and feed but for me after 14 weeks it finally dawned on me that I wasn't going to be able to feed this baby myself. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

That must have been SO scary for you Joshjunior, you were a total star for expressing that long, specially when you were getting such tiny amounts. I can't believe you stuck with it. As you say, you had absolutely no choice but to go on to formula. Thing is, I have got a choice - I've got tonnes of milk. And while there are any signs of improvement with her feeding, I think I've got to keep going (to 3 months anyway - after that I think it's more important that we get out and about and do baby stuff that isn't just feeding).
Speaking of signs of improvement, had about our best feed yet this morning. She's sleeping now (I'm still expressing as I daren't stop) but will probably wake in 15 minutes demanding a bottlesworth, so I'm not getting my hopes up...
It's weird that your baby seemed completely contented during that first week. My wee one snuffled away and was agitated as anything - I feel I should have known that something was wrong. But then she is my first, and the hospital staff didn't seem to think there was a problem. I get sad now thinking about that first week. When I got home from hospital and breastfed her in bed, looking out onto the garden, was probably the happiest moment in my life, and needless to say the memory is a bit tainted now I know the poor thing was famished.
Anyway I'm glad your wee boy is doing well now, that is the main thing. And thank you for writing this, this message and others are encouraging me to continue, which I suppose is what I wanted.

I had a vaguely similar experience to Joshjunior but nowhere near as bad - struggled to establish bf, ds under lights for jaundice for 3 days, a nightmare 3 hourly schedule of bf/cupfeed/express - finally out of hospital at 8 days, all OK for about a week, problems with feeding, then DS back in hospital for a few days with jaundice and dehydrated. DS took his g/n tube out the first night, so I let them give him a bottle instead, and have never looked back since. After all that had happened, I didn't want to attempt to reestablish b/f coz I didn't want to risk him becoming jaundiced again, and had just lost the energy and will to pump. DS is a very pernickety feeder, and can easily taken an hour to take his bottle in various stages, unless he is absolutely famished - which I think had a lot to do with why bfing didn't work out.

I still did the odd breast feed (including when out and about) for a month or two longer - when ds realised that he would get a bottle if he was still hungry after bf it was amazing how well he latched on - so some of these milky cow mums you envy could be like me - breastfeeding failures masquerading as milky cows!

I know what you mean about feeling terrible when you see all the breast is best posters - I feel so guilty when I read yet another research study on the evils of formula, but just think how many of us were brought up on it,and are fine, and also how much better it will be these days? Have you ever tried her with a bottle of formula?

Havana - I am impressed with your commitment so far - but are you actually getting any sleep? Put aside all your views on the advantages of bfing - would you feel happier without the pumping and with the extra time in the day that would give you?

sorry if I have rambled on, and not been able to give you a success story, just I know what its like to desperately want to bf, but it just doesn't work like the books say!

Hi mummytosteven, you didn't ramble on at all - I was interested to hear that you still bf for a while afterwards, did you do it every day to keep up your milk supply? I do bf her direct every day, I just have no idea how much she gets - just that it's not enough - and what impact it would have if I stopped expressing.

On the face of it I probably look like a milky cow too (if you glanced into my front room that is), but I can't imagine having the confidence to bf in public (aside from the bf clinic). I still need a load of pillows and stuff to give us the best possible chance of a decent feed. She often starts off well but just can't keep it up (or my milk doesn't flow fast enough, something happens anyway).

Yeah she's had formula, she had mixed feeds for about a week while I re-established my supply (it went down scarily quickly). There was quite a bit of vomiting that week though which seemed to disappear when she got EBM only, another reason I'm keen to keep this up for now.

When I do BF her it is sooo much easier than bottlefeeding her - yes I have to spend alot of extra time now, but if I crack it I will save myself hours! DD sleeps like a dream at night - she's often asleep from 11pm to around 7am - which helps enormously. It's annoying because I can't sleep as long as she can, but on the other hand it makes this possible (because I'm not totally knackered all the time). I'm only expressing 5 times a day now including one at 4-5am - no way I could have kept up the three hourly thing I did at the start (nightmare isn't it?). So just a few more weeks, then (I hope) I'll never look back and think I could have done more. Well okay I could express for 6 months, but I honestly don't think that's best for her or me.

Hi Havana. I didn't bf every day - probably one feed every other day at the very most, and less frequently than that at the end. As I had lost confidence in ds ability to get a decent feed from bfing, I just regarded the bf as being good for his health re:antibodies etc, rather than being food per se! I'm not sure if I had problems with supply - towards the end I would bf ds for 40 minutes, then he would take 125 mls - don't know whether this was a supply problem or just that ds liked using me as a dummy! Glad to see that you are getting some sleep - tbh that was one of the things that put me off expressing was not being meant to leave more than 6 hours before expressing! I think that you've already made loads of effort with dd, but if you think you will feel happier sticking out expressing till 3 months, then go for it. I felt guilty for not expressing, but thought it was better for ds that I didn't overstrain myself - i.e. that it was better for him to have formula and have a happier mum! So completely understand that you could not handle this for 6 months. If you were bfing, there would be something else you would feel guilty about - my bfing friends seem to manage to find different things to worry about.

Oh that's good mummytosteven - you didn't even do it that often and he still liked it there and got a bit of milk. No I know what you mean about it being getting the balance right - if I had carried on like I was in the first couple of weeks ie knackered and upset all of the time, this just wouldn't be worth it - dd would get the milk but would lose out big time in other ways. And some days it still feels like that a bit (like the day I started this thread). But most days it's totally manageable. Today she did some really good BFs, even slept for a good while after two of them, but was then on me more or less constantly from 5 until 8.30 - even seemed to be latched on okay and stuff, maybe I just don't replace the milk fast enough. Anyway DH is bottlefeeding her now and I'm back on the pump, and so it goes on...

It really sounds like things are progressing Havana. Lots of what you have said in your last couple of threads indicate she is starting to take to the breast.

It is very common for babies to be unsettled early evening time. (Even my bottlefed dd was fussy at this time) Her being on you constantly is her way of increasing your milk supply. Its been happening the last couple of days to me too, though usually between 3pm and 6pm for us. It might be a growth spurt.

The hard bit now is going to be knowing when to let go of the pump.

I notice her weight gain is good (my ds took ages to regain his birthweight and is still underneath the centiles) and I take it she is having plenty of wet nappies.

When you b/f do you go through the 3 stages of sucking. She should begin with fast sucks to encourage letdown then move on to longer, more rhythmical sucking. Eventually you should feel what is sometimes called flutter sucking which can be for comfort. If you are going through these stages then you should start to feel confident that she is feeding well.

Take advice from you professionals, but it may be time to start slowly reducing the expressing. Keep an eye on weight gain, nappies and alertness to ensure she is getting enough milk. Keep an eye on her cheeks to make sure she isn't sucking them in (a sign of an ineffective latch).

It sounds like you are turning a corner. Well done!

Waow - thanks for the tips JulieF. Have had another good day today - once again, she's only had 100mls from the bottle, and that was tonight, after she'd been feeding from me on and off for ages (at which point I lose confidence so offer her as much as she'll take from the bottle, so she doesn't go hungry).

Yes I think I recognise those stages. Until now she has done an awful lot of flutter sucking, or that has started happening way before she has had enough. But with some of the feeds in the past couple of days there has been no mistaking that she is getting milk - I can practically hear it hitting the back of her throat. What a great sound.

I have stayed off the pump so that I'm full whenever she wants to feed, except for the dawn express - she sleeps all night - and this one, last thing before bed. I know this sounds drastic, but it seems to be working okay so far. She's done plenty of nappies today, after yesterday's BFing - so we'll see how it goes over the next few days and I'll get her weighed on Tuesday.

I think my problem is knowing when she's hungry. After starving the poor wee mite in the first week, every time she cries I assume it is hunger, which is probably why she ends up grazing rather than having discreet feeds.

I think I might indeed be turning a corner, as you say, but I've had my hopes raised so many times I just daren't believe it. It is far from perfect - we have a great 20 minutes, then she kind of stops or falls off, or gets cross or red in the face, then she acts hungry again but doesn't go on well, and we have a rubbish 10 minutes, and so it goes on.

Thanks again for your help everyone, I am feeling so much better than I did when I started this thread.

Havana....you are doing great. All that sounds real progress....just go along at your pace, don't expect your confidence to come flooding back all at once, it is perfectly understandable to be cautious about it all. You are definitely on a positive journey

Just wondered how you are getting on. I'm hoping that you havn't posted because things are going well?

Don't worry Havana, you are not alone. My baby is also 7 weeks old and we haven't clicked with breast feeding either. I have enough milk so I don't need to express for that which I am eternally grateful for. But I get engorged quite often which makes me express just for some relief. Doesn't help because I just make more milk.

I also still have to shape my breast with my hand otherwise she doesn't latch on properly and I hear smacking sounds and I know she is taking in more air than anything else. And forget about breast feeding in the dark. No way, I need to see what I am doing otherwise she misses my nipple completely.

It is very frustrating and disheartening and makes me want to scream alot of the time. I only hope that we do 'click' one day but I can honestly say that I don't enjoy breast feeding one bit and don't find it bonding either because it is just too stressful. If it wasn't so good for babies, I would stop and resort to formula.

Hi Havana and other bf'ing ladies

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread but I wanted to write a word of encouragement.

I had terrible difficulty bf my dd (now 6.5mths), she had her first proper bf at 7.5 weeks and now all is going swimmingly. She couldn't latch on when born (combo of flat nipples, inability to suck hard enough and spiralling weight loss (she went from 7lb14oz to 6lb12oz in about 4 days)) - so we too had the constant pumping (I called the bedroom the milking parlour.....I was pumping about 10 times a day....agony and boring has heck) followed by syringe feeding - it seemed to go on all day. I was told by my lactation consultant to feed her every 1.5 - 2 hours in the first few weeks which was truly exhausting, as you can imagine.

A couple of top tips for increasing milk supply which really worked for me: eat porridge in the morning, pump for 10 mins after the milk stops flowing, take 'More Milk Plus' - active ingredient is fenugreek - well known to increase milk supply. This combination of things really increased my supply a treat (I went from pumping 15mls (it was that bad) to pumping 150mls from each breast).

You seem to be as determined as I was, and it is worth it, but it's very hard work and I sincerely wish you much luck. Keep on going.....

Hi there, I'm back - and yes, that's because it's going pearshaped again (only really get to mumsnet when I'm expressing).

Thanks for the new messages - mummyintexas I'm sorry you had such a hard time too, but it's encouraging to know it all came good, and that late as well. My wee one is going to be 9 weeks on Sunday. For over a week now she has been almost completely breastfed, direct (at most has had one bottle in the day, no more than 100mls). I tend to offer her the bottle to see how much she will take, to be sure that she has had enough from me, really. It all seemed to be going well at first, particularly as I was very milky much of the time. First thing in the morning seems good, but as the day goes on it gets more difficult - in the evenings my boobs feel really floppy and I just don't believe I have enough for her. Which is why DH is bottle feeding her now and I'm expressing. She's having a terrible evening.

Oh I just don't know what to do - seems like if I express, I haven't enough milk left for her, but if I don't, I run the risk of my supply going down so it being harder for her to feed... sometimes feeding seems really good, but if it's so good then why is she still on half an hour later (often not doing much at all), and then asking for more less than an hour after that?
She seems to have been doing enough nappies, but I suppose I won't really know how she's been getting on until I get her weighed next week. If she's lost weight I will be totally devastated. I just can't get over that first week when she seemed okay to me but in reality was starving.

Thanks for the tips too - where do you get the 'More Milk Plus' stuff?

Havana, she is 9 weeks old you say. Around 9-10 weeks is a common growth spurt time. Lots of mums give up around now because they mistakenly think they are not making enough milk. Also you do start to lose that fullness feeling which can lead to a lack of confidence in your own body.

The feeding and fussiness in the evening is very common and is your baby's natural way of upping your milk supply durig a growth spurt. The best way of increasing your milk is to let her nurse for as long and as often as she wants to. It shouldn't last too long (hopefully) and things should settle down agai.

It sounds like you have been doing really well. It can take a while after all the initial shock of weight loss etc to believe that things are normal now.

I a really pleased that she is feeding directly form you. Well done!

Havanna - having read throught his thread it seems to me that your milk supply is not an issue but your confidence is. Breastfed babies often like to be at the breast for long periods. They are there because they love it, not because they are hungry. I think you need the support to go cold turkey without bottles. Watching what she takes from the bottle does not indicate what she is getting from the breast. She has had a good weight gain so you can well afford to spend time just directly feeding her from the breast. You can do it, your body is producing the milk she needs. You will not starve her. Try not to clock watch but just feed her on demand. Do not be afraid to interrupt a feed if she has been on for ages because you need to do something else. Breastfeeding mothers realise that is the norm. I really feel you have a confidence crisis and your baby would breast feed better without the confusion of bottles. Have you got support close by?

Forgot to say that I supported a friend in this type of sitauation who went on to exclusively B/F for 6 months after mix feeding after an initial weight loss over the first 4 -6 weeks. Baby slept all night practically from birth and was identified as a 'happy starver'. She initially did not want to do a feed during the night but actually ended up setting her alarm clock for 3am. She found that this was the best breastfeed her baby took. It did wonders for her supply and after that she turned the corner and started excusively breastfeeding after eliminating top-ups by 1 oz each day until there were none.

Mears advice sounds good to me...

Hi Havana - glad to see things have improved, and you're not still chained to the pump! Best of luck for the clinic next week.