Maybe the $1,000,000 question but is there any way I can guarantee I'll be able to breast feed this time?

[LadyTophamHatt]

Tried and failed with all 3 ds's.
Really REALLY want to succeed this time.

NCT and LLL feels like a minefield to me and seems to cost £££££, which we just haven't got.
I know thats silly because I'd have to pay for formula but it's just added to the weekly shop and not a lump of cash IYSWIM.

So, is tehre any way I can guarantee it'll work this time??

sorry yellowrose, just read what you last wrote to me. 'calm down dear - this is not a formula commercial'??? how dare you? you have NO idea how hard i struggled to breastfeed, supplemented with formula, and i kept it up for nearly five months.
i am not, as you will see on many bf/ff threads, any sort of advocate of formula feeding. oh do you know what? PARPPARPPARP!!! you are too ill-mannered and ignorant for me to deal with.

Aitch - thanks love !

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aitch - if you are thinking of the 19th century, when people first became shocked about infant mortality stats, these were high because poor urban women did not breastfeed for long....instead of bf for months or years, they had to leave their babies to work in sweatshops and factories and the babies were weaned on to pap or unrefrigerated cows milk. If formula had been available, they would not have been able to afford it.

There's lots in the Palmer book 'Politics of Breastfeeding'.

Throughout history, including pre-industrial society, or even in hunter-gatherer times, there will have been the occasional woman who has not been able to produce sufficient milk, or indeed, babies whose mothers have died. It's reasonable to assume that other mothers took over or else supplemented the breastfeeding when needed.

Not producing milk at all is vanishingly rare (though occasionally one pops up in the literature) - virtually all women will have produced some milk, but the ones who did not manage to do so abundantly probably had skinny babies. It's not good to be skinny in a time or a place where life is precarious, however, so a generous milk supply is valued.

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pitch - I hadn't expected the violent backlash to be honest when you consider that my intentions are genuine and were intended for LadyTop.

tiktok - I read "the politics of breastfeeding" last year. It was a major turning point in my life. Palmer is right about ALMOST everything - I won't ever use the word ALL again !

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Yes - it's an excellent book, written, can you believe it, nearly 20 years ago!

i recommend bestfeeding book too, it helped me. i am still bf 4 months on, it still remains a struggle but glad i stuck at it - in some ways it has been more difficult than labour!

Pitch - I don't know what a/n classes you went to, but it's actually quite difficult to give the full picture of possibilities in a 2 hour class. Everything you say - pain equals poor latch, there's always enugh milk, baby doesn't need much (not that he won't feed well - that's a sign something's not right) in the first days....it's all generally true.

I do classes as well, and I hope people go away with all that, to be honest, but I hope as well they know that if they do have problems and that some people need a lot of help sorting out the problems.

The main negatives of breastfeeding are not inherent in breastfeeding; it's the conflicting advice and the rubbish support people get when they want to breastfeed. If I can give good information in a class, I feel that in itself is a good job.

I don't understand the comment about benefits, sorry!

tiktok, that website was about a collection of artefacts from ancient until modern times that have been documented as being used for small infant feeding. of course i in no way dispute your point about the industrial revolution but i understand that the rare babies throughout history whose mothers couldn't feed them were passed on to other members of the family. but you'd be surprised to see some ancient (Egyptian? can't exactly remember) pap feeders that were a dead ringer for the victorian ones. i WISH i could find the website.

gabrielle palmer has many interesting things to say on the subject of infant nutrition even as it continues onto solids, so i'm a fan. she knows about my website and i received a message of support from her which was kind of her.

Lady T H, you may want to look at this site here run by Dr Suzanne Colson. she's pretty cool, i think, and has some interesting ideas about promoting bfing with minimal upset. she's french, and if you saw that michel odent documentary on BBC4 recently, she used to work alongside him.

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I had a nightmare feeding my first and gave up after 6 weeks, bottle fed my second - now expecting third and hope to breastfeed. I felt that my problem lay with ds1 not me - he was so restless, would only feed for 5 mins so never got a decent feed so then cried all the time because he was hungry etc etc - tried every position going and got NCT support. But nothing worked - I think maybe his sudden arrival thru emergency section had some impact and that for the first few days, while he looked like he was perfectly latched on he was sucking his tongue and had a big blister under it (poor thing)

Having now read the whole thread I have got some things to consider when get into trouble - tiktok - you seem to know what you are talking about - so will get back to you in April! Where are your classes based by the way? There are 3 feeding support groups locally but it is all postnatal - and I need someone to talk to before it all goes pear shaped!

On a final note to some people who have posted - being nice to eachother is also free.

aitch - pap feeders have been found everywhere. May not have been used instead of bf, or even for tiny babies. Does not show a lack of bf. However, we do know that in many socieities, elite mothers did not bf - they gave the job to nurses, or maybe the babies were not bf for long. It's certain that most of the human race has breastfed for a long time.

Pitch - it's a hard balance to strike. I think any class should be realistic about some people needing help, though. Shame you thought needing help meant you were a failure

cornflake - any competent midwife should be able to spot the diference between a baby sucking/swallowing milk and sucking his tongue....dear me.

pitch - I had the same experience with the NCT when I was pregnant. I went to NCT ante-natal and was given the impression everything would be fine, baby would latch almost instantly, no pain, no cracking, no blood, etc But I think the intention of these sessions is to ENCOURAGE not to put you off !

My son didn't latch for 4 days. I was lucky to have had a reltively good birth experience (in a birthing pool most of the time in a birth centre) but my poor son was born 17 days early with a seriously martian shaped head !! His head looked like a cone !

I called the NCT (didn't know anyone else at the time) on day 2. They were very helpful, suggested I should express by hand (I never managed it and I didn't have a pump), sit with baby in the bath, lots of skin to skin, etc. My son still didn't latch. I thought he would starve and or die of dehydration because it was a very hot summer. My beautiful son and I spent the first few days of his life in tears. But he survived and so did I.

I had a friend who had bf 2 sons for 3 months and had enough experience to help me on day 4. Also one of the MW's who visited me after the birth was a bit of a hippy, rebel sort, dead keen on bf, and very supportive. I also was lucky enough to find out about Lansinoh when I was pregnant and used it on my nipples which helped stop the drying or cracking nipples. I did have some pain and soreness, but it went after a few weeks. I also have largish boobs and had very sever pelvic pain after my long labour, but I read about bf lying down. I was lying down with my son for the first 10 months ! Now he is 2.4 yo and just sits on my lap.

Oh, forgot to add we had thrush when he was 5 months old. I expressed and spoon/syringe fed him for about a week until his sore mouth got better. The BFN helped me with thrush as did kellymom.com.

I think what bf advisers try to do is NOT hide the truth or sugar coat anything (I used to think they did too), but they are just trying to look on the bright side of life instead of dwelling on the negative. If things do go wrong then they will help you through that too.

You'd think so! Was only when transferred to community hosp that a midwife picked up on it and helped sort him out. Also in the main hosp - when asked for help everyone from the auxilliary and cleaner to the paed would grab his head and shove it towards my breast - then pleased with themselves because he looked like he was latched on well would bugger off - as it was my first I never realised how completely unacceptable and appauling the support I received was at the main hosp.

Also - just to continue rant - the community unit I went to afterwards which has a UNICEF breastfeeding award has now decided that mums have to go home after 1 or 2 nights before their milk even comes in! Told them already I wasn't going anywhere until they had helped establish breastfeeding when baby arrives in April!

But despite all this I do feel confident that I can do it!

tiktok - Palmer's book has or is coming out as a new edition soon ! I had huge problems buying the old one. Out of print in most places.

tiktok... don't understand the confusion here. i agree with you, i know that most people in human history have been able to bf. bluejelly said 'what happened to the very few who couldn't bf, historically?' and i said they were fed by others or pap fed or they died. that's not incorrect, is it?

You're right, aitch - my point was really that formula was no 'life saver' and that babies died because of lack of breastfeeding not because of lack of formula per se. Most babies have always been bf - pap bottles are not a sign of widespread artificial feeding, or widespread lack of breastfeeding ability. Infant feeding has always been a socially-mediated activity, and not just a biological one. I might be mis-reading you, sorry.

LTh-

I know how you feel. I was unsuccessful with ds and am pregnant now, and want to give it a go with the new baby. Anyway, there is no guarantee that it is going to work out for either of us. All we can do is try our best, and be informed. I'm going in with the attitude that I'm going to try and if it doesn't work, oh well. I'm not going to let myself feel like a failure. After all the sun will still shine whether I bf or not.

LTH any pressure you put on yourself now will just make you feel more pressured later. Get the help you need, but take it easy. Relax and take what comes to you.

no, that's not what i was saying, tiktok, think you must've misread me a bit.

LadyT - just to reassure you LLL & NCT offer free bfing help to all mums via their helplines (apart from the phone call of course!). Yes NCT do charge for their antental classes, but if you are in a limited income they can & do allow you to pay in installments or a reduced fee if you really havent got the money. I paid for my classes in installments that way & you dont have to be a member of the NCT to go to them either.

You dont have to pay anything to go to LLL meetings either. They are open to all pg & bf mums. If you join you get a nice magagzine and some groups do ask that you join to borrow books, but not all do.

The best way I know to help you bf is to be prepared with a support system in place before you have the baby. So do loads of research now find out about all the groups in your area, go along to them (all welcome pg mums) so you get to know the people that attend (lots of groups will have a core group that go most weeks) and the group leaders/councillors that way if you do have any problems you wont be rining total strangers for support. Get the phone numbers of all the bfcs locally & program into your mobile, stick a big notice on the fridge, copy in your hospital bag in case of tranfer etc....Buy or borrow some really good bfing books - all LLL approved ones are great (& you may be able to borrow them from your local LLL group with no cost to you) especially "The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding".

The other thing I would make sure is those who will be around you after the birth: partner/husband, grandparents etc all know how important this is to you. Someone suggesting you take a break & let them feed the baby formula is not really going to help much! MY DH is the main reason we got thru our bfing problems simply because he knew just how much I wanted to suceed - during my darkest days when I just wanted to give up he just kept saying - itll be alright... we will get there...etc etc. It would have been so easy for him to go & make up a bottle, especially as hed fed nurmerous babies helping is childminder mum over the years, but he bit his tongue & kept reasurring me. He later told me his motives were quite what I had thought (he didnt want to do the night feeds ) but at least the thought was there!!!

anyway Im wittering now...

It also might be worth having a bit of a de-brief with a bfc about your bfing exeriences previously. Every baby is different & you might have no problems at all or a completely new problem...but going over what happended before might give you some closure iyswim & make sure that there arent any medical reasons for not managing to bf longterm before.

i'm breastfeeding my 5 month old. what worked for me was that book already mentioned, 'bestfeeding' also kellymom.com and tiktok's posts on here!