Maybe the $1,000,000 question but is there any way I can guarantee I'll be able to breast feed this time?

[LadyTophamHatt]

Tried and failed with all 3 ds's.
Really REALLY want to succeed this time.

NCT and LLL feels like a minefield to me and seems to cost £££££, which we just haven't got.
I know thats silly because I'd have to pay for formula but it's just added to the weekly shop and not a lump of cash IYSWIM.

So, is tehre any way I can guarantee it'll work this time??

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lth a secondary post partum haemorrage is one which occurs not at the birth but afterwards (usually 10 days) and happens because there is a bit of retained product (membrane or placenta) in the uterus. in my cases both were really quite small bits of membrane, but they get infected, and mean that the uterus can't quite shut down. Milk is produced by the action of prolactin,which you secrete when your uterus contracts, so if it can't fully contract you often don't secrete enough prolactin to produce milk (or enough milk)

yellowrose the only person who ever told me that I wasn't producing enough milk was the dairy farmer next door, and I assure you I haven't based my life experiences on her. please don't be so patronising. I know that I wasn't - because my babies put on no weight, because there was a physiological reason for it. I also never had to use breast pads and never managed to express anything (I know I know, not conclusive, but relevant). Please don't tell me that the reason I couldn't feed my babies was because an evil formula manufacturer brainwashed me.

And the whole "no pain with a good latch" really doesn't help either. It is equally bollox. I'm sure plenty of painful nipples are caused by bad latches but there are also plenty of fabulous latches around which cause excruciating pain as well, quite possibly because of the shape of that particular baby's palate, which lets not forget is likely to be shared by siblings.

I hate all that patronising claptrap. Sorry, but after 4 babies I really don't need to be told it is all down to crap technique and idiocy.

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(as an aside, I found that with my second and subsequent babies, I didn't need breastpads, or leak at all, but they were all breastfed - I just think maybe your body is better at getting the right level of milk production after the first baby - maybe this is rubbish, but this is what I found!).

I would also agree that while it is wonderful to breastfeed blah blah blah, I suffered 6 weeks of horrible agonising cracked and bleeding nipples with dd2, I did carry on feeding after this and it got better, but I had a miserable first 6 weeks and pnd and I think this definitely contributed. I would have loved to have felt able to stop the agony earlier than that and I honestly don't know whether it was worth all the agony in the end.

LTH is your midwife NHS or private? I had a private midwife for ds2's hb and she was absolutely wonderful in helping me with the breastfeeding - in fact, I would say that was the main focus of all the postnatal visits, and she or her colleague came every day for about two weeks to check I was okay. I can't emphasise how much it made the difference, especially in contrast to the way I was treated when I had ds1 in hospital. and the experience that kama describes is so true- I remember being in tears and having to grit my teeth to get through the pain every time ds2 latched on. Each day she came round I seemed to have a new thing that was bothering me and she kept reassuring me that we were doing the right thing, and that whatever I was experiencing was fairly normal for day2, day3 or whatever. I hadn't gone through any of this with ds1 as he was already in special care due to low blood sugar. (If I'd had the bf support he might not have got into that state, but that's another story, grr.)

She also lent me a copy of Bestfeeding which I found extremely helpful, especially for the picture of what's going on inside a baby's mouth when they feed, which really showed me why the latch is important and what is behind that 'nose to nipple' mantra.

I don't know how often NHS midwives visit after hbs, but could you say to her that this is the one thing you would like her to concentrate on after you've had your little one?

I would also like to re-emphasise that the bf counsellors on all the helplines are free, and really helpful. And if you are able to get out, you can go with your little one to a LLL meeting where they can check how they are feeding and help with whatever you're going through at that point in time.

Also, if there are any near you at convenient times, you could go to LLL meetings before you have the baby, to meet other mums and the 'leaders' and to talk about your previous experiences. I didn't discover LLL until ds2 was about 6 months old, but other women were there while pregnant and with newborns and they found it really useful to have experienced bf mums helping them out.

yellowrose, you have upset me before with your irritating assertion that all women can produce enough milk for their babies and now you are doing it again.

please, please, please take this on board and stop repeating such an untruth... it's a scientific fact that some women DO NOT produce enough.

it might be beta-blockers interfering with supply, it might be PCOS (in my case, it might have been both) but for god's sake stop repeating your little factoid as if it is medically the case. I can assure you i demand fed round the clock and my latch was declared spot-on by everyone who saw it (and later tweaked to utter perfetion at one of the few specialist breastfeeding units in the country).

MOST women make enough milk, in fact, far and away most women. most women who have difficulties could be helped by better support, that i do not deny.

but it is a scientific fact that i did not produce enough milk, and i can pass you on to one of the best and most committed BFing specialists in the world to confirm that for you , if you like. I would therefore really appreciate it if you could take more care in the future.

it's ridiculous to suggest that with all the many medical conditions out there compromising people's ability to breathe, run, see and talk etc that everyone is born with the perfect ability to breastfeed their children. good for you supporting people, but your little rant was innaccurate in that respect and i really needed to bring that to your attention fro the future.

Princess - no patronising was intended and about 99% of what I wrote was directed at the original poster not to you. She is the one seeking advice.

I speak to many many mothers (including my own sister) who say that they gave up because they had "no milk". Usually when you ask more about the bacground, it turns out to be due to mix feeding or scheduling feeds or some other interference with milk supply. I had a friend whose bf baby was practically skin and bone still at around 5.5 months because she refused to feed on demand and over-used the dummy. Of course the baby failed to thrive and she put him on formula on the advice of her HV. A classic example of a problem that could easily have been resolved with more frequent and effective bf. Nothing to do with lack of milk.

Thankfully not everyone has a dairy farmer living next door who knows more about cows than they do about lactating women. I just hope LTH talks to a sensible bf mother or adviser before she talks to any farmers

Aitch - you can be upset by whatever you wish. Nothing that I have said here was intended to upset nor was any of what I said aimed at YOU.

I have to echo previous postings and take issue with the myths that are put out by some ardent breastfeeders.

"No pain with a good latch" is rubbish. Granted, some of my initial problems with b/f (cracked nipples, etc.) were probably caused by a bad latch on (cos LO thrashed around so much I was glad to get him on at all!). However, once nipples had healed (with the help of nipple shields which are wonderful things, despite what the b/f gurus tell you) I still suffered excrutiating pain at every feed, for virtually the whole feed. There was and is nothing wrong with the latch - it has been checked several times.

Having waited 4 years to conceive my son and had a terrible birth, I'm afraid that yet more pain was too much for me to cope with. I was not prepared to ruin those precious first weeks with my baby. I didn't give up completely, just started combining with formula to give my breasts a break.

The success of b/f, IMO, depends on having enough support from your DH/DP. If yours is fairly ambivalent (like mine) then they simply will not understand the sacrifices that have to be made. DH has been brilliant, but he couldn't stand seeing me in pain and yelling at DS out of sheer frustration, then breaking down in tears at every feed. He made me give him formula to give myself a break. Sometimes I regret this choice and wish I was still exclusively b/f, but when I remember how terrible those days were I'm glad I made the choice to enjoy my baby instead. Life is too short and a baby is too precious.

Aitch - please give me the name of your bf specialist. I would be very interested in discussing this with him/her. I think I said that such cases were RARE. I stand by that assertion.

twinkle - yes I am an ardent bf. But PLEASE do not accuse me of giving out myths. YES it is painful for some women, but not for most with an effective latch.

What is god's name is the myth in what I said ? Generalising (i.e saying that in 99% of cases the pain stops with a good latch) is not a myth. Please get YOUR facts right.

aitch, I have a feeling I have had to come on here and put similar corrections to the mumsnet 'body' too......

The vast majority of women can make enough milk to sustain their babies. But it is well-known among people with experience that a small number may have that ability compromised - this can be (for example) an underlying untreated condition such as chronic anaemia, or an event that happens round about the time of birth that means the mother and baby are separated and don't get off to a good start (some women overcome a bad start; others never really do), or medication (some fertility drugs are long-lasting in their effect, for instance, and have been associated with poor breastfeeding production, yes, even months after they have been used)....anyway, suffice it to say that while most cases of 'insufficient milk' are either misdiagnosed or brought on by poor help and support, there are some cases which happen for other reasons (and for reasons which we don't always know, as well).

There is a lot we don't know about sore nipples. Latch is vital, but some nipples, and some babies mouths, are such that getting the attachment comfortable is virtually impossible, at least at first. I have seen nipples like this and I have seen babies' mouths (and tongues) that add to the challenge. In addition, I have also seen a very small handful of mothers and babies where everything looks great, but the mother is still in dreadful pain. This is unusual, and with the right help, most mothers can have a pain-free feed, but a very few can't.

It does no one any favours at all to deny this.

Anyone who has experience working with breastfeeding mothers over time knows there are some instances where you can't really explain what's been going on to make it so difficult.

Fixing breastfeeding is a clinical speciality, albeit a new one, and even if 100 per cent of women breastfed, and everyone felt great about it, and didn't find it got messed up with daft ideas, we would still need to give extra help (or even donated human milk in some circumstances) to the ones who had the greatest difficulties.

yellowrose - you do say though that 'ALL women can and do produce sufficient milk for their babies' with the trick of demand feeding.....I don't doubt your sincerity, but this just ain't so.

Sorry Yellowrose - it wasn't aimed at you specifically, I was just venting frustration. I just don't think many women, myself included, are well enough prepared for just how difficult b/f might be. For me, reading all the time about how pain free it should be and how I should be enjoying it made me feel really rubbish. I still feel guilty for not perservering even though I know I did the best thing for me and my baby. Apologies.

you are kidding, aren't you, yellowrose? god, who do you think you are?

explain to me how you managed to go from 'almost all' in your first post to to, and i quote, "ALL women can and do produce sufficient milk for their babies" in your second, then i will inflict you on my poor breastfeeding counsellor. Although forgive me if i say that she'll probably be too busy helping women to breastfeed to justify herself and her considerable medical expertise to you.

you seem to assume that everyone will read the entire thread, so they will be able to pick out the bits when you are clearly frothing at the mouth. well, guess what, not everyone will, which means that you have a responsibility to other posters not to make inflammatory statements like the ones of your second post.

and thanks for you apology by the way... oh hang on, it wasn't one, was it?

Just out of interest, if it is (as tiktok says )virtually impossible for some mothers to bf, what happened in the days before formula milk? Did other mothers feed their babies for them?

oh, righto tiktok, didn't see your post before i wrote mine. thankyou for stepping in to calmly and politely clear up any confusion.

bluejelly, someone once posted a really brilliant website about this. yes, people fed for other women, but also babies were fed 'pap' which was a mix of flour or bread and water or cow's milk. and various other things were tried too. of course, the bitter truth is that the infant mortality rate was horrifying at the time.

How grim. Well thank god for formula then ( and that comes from an 'ardent' bfeeder)

tiktok - I should not have used the word ALL in that particular sentence. I haven't seen as many bf mothers as you have of course, but those whom I have known had problems that could have been resolved if someone had helped them. This suggestion appears to have been patronising to some. I fail to see why, but hey ho, such is life So glad I am not a bf adviser. Difficult job, isn't it ?

I think I said somewhere further down that MOST women can bf because they have enough milk and that clinical cases where they can't is rare. I did use the word RARE. Apologies that I said "all" in one instance.

LadyTop - good luck to you and all the best with the birth. If the helplines are jammed, please come back here. Tiktok, et al will support you

Aitch - you need to calm down dear - this is NOT a formula commercial !

I think the tone and vocab. of your last post indicate the only one foaming at the mouth is YOU

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yeah, hey ho. i'm glad you're not a bf adviser too, yellowrose.