help! advice please, any midwives or feeding experts please!!!!

[lunavix]

My dd (2 weeks tomorrow) is a bit of a sleepy feeder, falls asleep at the breast a lot so I'm trying to keep her awake with nappy changes etc to take more.

At night, dh gives her a bottle at 11pm, ebm if I've managed to express any, or formula if not or if I haven't managed much. (Ideally I'd like it to be all ebm) HOWEVER last night my little gutsy dd took the 2oz I'd managed to express, plus 3oz of formula (which tbh really makes 4oz of formula with the 3oz of water and 3 scoops of powder.)

Is this okay???? 5 - 6 oz of milk seems soooo much for such a diddy baby! She's sort of sleeping through, dh put her down around 12.30, and she woke me at 6 for a feed, although usually she sleeps till 7. I don't want to stuff her though, ds is on the chunky side and I don't want her to be! It just seems so much milk.

Luna, hope we can help.

What is her weight? What are her nappies like? How many times is she coming to the breast in 24 hours, and how many times are you expressing? Are you keen to bf?

The questions that I would have about what's happening include that long gap between feeds 11 pm to 6 or 7....which could be an even longer gap between actual breastfeeds (that is, stimulation of the breasts). My concern would be that your breastmilk 'production line' isn't getting 'asked' often enough to make milk, if you have a long gap like that and a sleepy baby....

This can all be fixed, though.

Sleeping through is only fine in a baby as little and as young as this if the weight is being piled on and if everything else is fine.

So - more info, and lets see what we can do.

I am really sorry to hijack but Luna - did you get my email? I really need to know if you want this stuff!

Sorry and TIA

lt - sorry nightmare involving car will email you asap!

tiktok - she only dropped less than 5% (and was 8lb 2 at birth so not too diddy) and she's gained some since then - don't know if she's regained birth weight yet but can't be far off tbh. A few days ago she was over 8lb (not entirely sure how much as HV had to 'guess' as didn't have kg/lb converty thing with her.)

I'm loving bfing, I didn't get to with my ds (I think in hindsight there were problems that could have been resolved but local MW/HV weren't hugely helpful at the time). She's feeding... at least 5 or 6 times a day. Sometimes more depending on whether she's had an 'alert' feed or a sleepy one. Today for instance, she woke me at 6am, then had another at 8ish, one at 10, then one at 2, one at 5, one at 7 and one at 8.30. Mostly she'll cry for it, feed for 10min, then doze. I'll try cheek stroking or nappy changing, or other things to wake her more, then it'll be 10 min and snooze. And so on. Usually after an hour or so I put her down! If she's had a bit more of a decent feed she'll be fine, but increasingly she's snoozing more, then if she has two feeds close together (for example the 7pm and 8.30pn ones) she's howling for the second, and then has a desperate gulping session.

TOnight, she fed on between 8.30 and 9.15 (A good 20 minutes was feeding, I wouldn't have thought she'd got much at 7pm) I've just expressed (only got 1oz though, I don't usually leave it this late to start) I'd normally express after her first feed of the morning (6/7ish) possibly again 2ish, then again in the evening if I hadn't got a lot. Most I've managed in a day is 3oz, in two or three sessions, in total.

Midwife said she was happy with her sleeping through, me expressing (albeit not a lot) etc etc. HV said expressing/bottle/sleeping through was fine but lectured me on the formula (which tbh I know already, I'm trying to express to cut it out!!!) but when dh told me she'd had that much formula it did worry me... especially as she actually didn't sleep through as long that night as she has done previously (only taking around 3oz normally and sleeping till 7)

If I'm going about this all wrong, then I could revert to simply demand feeding but both dh and I really want him to give her this bottle at night. I feel I need the break, and he's missing the feeding when he used to feed ds a lot...

I forgot to add, (please excuse the essay) that my main concern with entirely demand feeding, especially with my sleepy dd, is that I'm starting work again Monday, and also have a rather lively toddler to chase after. This will probably sound terribly selfish, which makes me feel rather as I really do have her best interests at heart, but my ds would go loopy if I sat there feeding her all day as I can't do anything with him.. which is what I'm practically doing anyways. Plus from monday I'm working (I'm a childminder, but just doing before and after school runs) so obviously constant feeding then is another concern. I am desperate NOT to formula feed her (even though people keep telling me it'll 'fit in better' ) but constant demand feeding is a bit of a worry for me.

Not impressed with an HV who has to guess at a baby's weight....but that's a side issue.

It's important for you to have that feeling of being able to give a bottle, and that's fine....but does it have to be right now? Could you work towards that in a week or two? My concern is that 5-6 bf a day just isn't enough to build up and maintain a good breastmilk supply at this early stage. It would be better for your milk supply to use the time you would save not expressing simply feeding - even the 7 feeds she has yesterday are simply not enough for most people to build up a milk supply and things could dwindle. You say you are desperate not to formula feed - so you need to give breastfeeding a chance if that's the case. This is the physiology of it - sorry

With a good milk supply, you can edge your baby into a routine tat fits with you and which doesn't mean sitting for an hour every time.

What do you think??

What would be best right now then? Just feeding on demand? Is there anything I should be doing about her sleepy feeding - should I be trying to keep her alert for a certain amount of time, to feed? I am worried she'll be attached 24/7 at this rate! You say it doesn't need to be for an hour, so how long should I try and keep her on for?

I'm happy to wait a bit to introduce the bottle/expressing - do you literally mean a week or two? (not sure how happy dh will be lol but that's another story!)

Thanks so much, I really appreciate the advice.

Luna, I am a bit confused - if you are not feeding 'on demand' what are you doing? Making her wait for feeds? But you say she is sleeping a lot.....it doesn't sound as if she is waking up a lot and asking for more, only to be not fed. So I am obviously missing something here!

Unless it is the length of feeds you are concerned about - is that it?

In fact, I think your breastmilk supply will be supported better by feeding her more often and that might mean holding her close and giving her more opportunities to come to the breast. It's frequent feeding that drives the supply.

I think it'll help you to give one of the bf helplines a call and really talk this through.

The bottom line is what you are doing at the moment is likely to end up with you not breastfeeding, which is what you don't want. Perhaps you can explain that to dp....what are his concerns?

I'm demand feeding during the day, but unsure how long to leave her on for - should I just put her down after the first time she falls asleep or keep her awake? She dozes approximately every 10 minutes, sometimes less!

I meant reverting to demand feeding throughout evening/night, atm my last feed with her is 8.30ish then she either cries for her feed at 10.30 or dh wakes her at 11 (this is the ebm/formula)

dh doesn't feel anything like the bond with her that he had with ds - I struggled bf ds for a few weeks, and eventually the hv told us to continue formula feeding him (the mw in the hospital had started him on formula around day 3) dh loved feeding ds and he's already said he's not liking not feeding dd... I know it's tough really but I don't feel deep down he's entirely supportive of me bfing.

I am concerned about being up all night with her - I really struggle with tiredness, which the gp is worried might be to do with my thyroid as I had a similar problem with ds after he was born, and unfortunatley day time naps aren't an option!

Hi Luna,

I totally understand where you're coming from as I posted a similar thread when ds was around same age. I was worried about not expressing enough for a feed and going back to work. However, I soon realised that with breast feeding we can't fight these things. 2 weeks very young - I learnt that as time goes on, breast supply increases and so does the amount you express. It's vital to be feeding frequently in the early days to establish a good supply. A lot of it is about changing expectations - the fact that I couldn't really get LO to do what I wanted but the other way round. My LO is 6 weeks and still having 10-12 feeds in 24 hrs ( including nights!) but I am happy as he is thriving. My husband still gives a bottle of EBM at night ( approx 3 oz) and I am expressing ( at the same time) approx 4.5 oz so we have a surplus of EBM in the freezer.

The other decision I made was to extend my maternity leave - not ideal as i am the sole salary but I really want to commit to breast feeding for at least 4 mths.

I agree with tic tok about supply and frequency etc and the early days are vital to establish this.

Thanks...

I've been thinking starting work not such a good idea lol sadly I can't take maternity leave now. I had no idea what bfing would be like or how time consuming!

I'm only working from 3 - 6 in the evenings (and for an hour in the mornings for the first two weeks) until the end of October when it's full time, so it's not too huge a commitment. I'm praying she doesn't want to latch on for the whole 3 hours though because I really need to be able to do things during that time!

When did you start expressing? Dh will be upset if I refuse him his one bottle a day, but if I tell him it's only for a few weeks he may be happier.

Okay so much for my good intentions...

just had a chat to dh about all this. As I suspected, he got very riled up about it and says he's refusing to let me take away 'his' one bottle that he's allowed to do. He got really defensive and shirty ( I pointed out four weeks of unsuccessful bfing with ds and two weeks of mostly successful with dd hardly make either of us an expert on the topic, but he says he believes nothing that professionals have to say) and said he'd rather dd was in a set routine (after ds was started formula feeding, he settled into a good routine and slept through at around 6 weeks) than breastfed, and he'd rather she was formula fed than demand fed.

So what do I do now? The best I could get him to agree to was only giving her 3oz of expressed milk (my theory being if she feeds less from the bottle, she'll wake during the night still) so I'll now be fighting to get 3oz of ebm a day (only currently managing 1 - 2 in a sitting). Will be binning the formula tomorrow, he can't give her what we don't have lol.

Would getting up and expressing at 11pm and around 3am be any help at all? He's also said unless she wakes for a feed he doesn't want me waking her as it's disrupting her solid nights sleep....

Feeling rather low now. I knew he wasn't hugely supportive but he's so stubborn and I really need him with me on this.

Oh Lunavix you poor thing, you so don't need that attitude right now...

I'd bin the formula anyway and carry on with expressing but don't worry if you don't make 3 oz. She'll make up for it from you anyway. Even if your dh only gets to give a token amount at least he'll feel 'involved'.

juna, I am sorry to read about that...am on my way out at the moment so can't answer at length, but I will give it some thought.

juna = luna

Luna - when I expressed I collected milk over a few sittings. I also hand expresed which I found was faster. When you express remember to keep switching breasts as the milk flow slows down. You get milk quicker that way. Do you leak at all? If so, use breast shells to collect the drip milk when you are feeding/expressing off the other breast. By expessing 1 0r 2 oz off at a time, you are not having to spend ages at it, then you can add the milk expressed tohgether to make a full feed.

I am not going to add to anything Tiktok has said regardiing breastfeeding because she is totally spot on and I agree with everything she says.

If you cannot win your DH round, you could try expressing more effectively to get more EBM. That EBM then could replace any formula you are using. Could you bring that bottle feed forward in the evening? Night feeds are good for milk production in the early weeks, so if you have to give in over the bottle, then have it at a less damaging time?

I personally would not give into him but I am not in your relationship. HTH.

Thanks everyone.

I'm going to try swaying him on the bottle, it really feels important to me to exclusively bf, well however exclusive it is her having already had some formula. Will be binning the formula though and telling him all I get is all he gets to give her!

Mears - would around 7ish be a better time for him to give her a bottle? I'll try talking him round to that. How on earth do you hand express btw???

All else failing, what are the best times of day to express, or is it just when I feel fullest?

Thanks again, everyone. I'm going to continue trying to win him round, but I can't just say no to him unforunately.

Oh Luna - I'm really sorry to hear about your problems. It's very hard to express an extra 3 oz a day on top of breast feeding when your baby is only 2 weeks old. The thing is - it does change. I started expressing when LO was only a week old ( not sure whether that's the right thing to do) but I did end up putting it on hold for a few weeks because I was so damn exhausted from feeding and expressing all day long. Also, I wanted to see what happened to my boobs without expressing. One day, I needed to go out so i expressed 2 full boobs and found it was MORE than he took and then started doing it more regularly.

If it helps, show your dh this post. Expressing does improve and there is no reason why he can't do one or two feeds in the day if you express at the same time. It is very important that he feels involved with the child rearing process - my husband has had similar feelings especially as he will be the primary carer when I go back to work.

As far as expressing is concerned, I personally find it most effective to use an electric pump ( medela) and massage with my hands at the same time ( esp where all the lumps are) Also alternating helps the let down, so if I can't get much from one breast at first, I go back to it after doing the other side.

If you are committed to breast feeding, i'm afraid you will have to be prepared for the lack of routine and hard work - the sleepless nights will remain for a while - although you are lucky that your baby is a good weight to start with - my little monkey is on the 9th centile so obviously will take a bit longer to feed more and less frequently.

Other good ways of dh bonding with Lo are bathing together, changing nappies, putting to sleep, carrying baby topless..etc.

good luck and lots of love x

Hi Luna,

My DH was interested in giving DS bottles, but we waited until he was about 4 weeks. I would express into a bottle then Dh would give it straight to him. If he needed any more after the bottle finished, then I'd take him back to finish the job. It might be worth trying that rather than topping up with formula.

I hope your DH is more understanding, good luck

Oh another question if anyone's around - if I limit the ebm dh gives dd to 3oz, I'd imagine she'll wake for a feed during the night.

If not, should I wake her? My last time feeding her (tonight for example) is 8.30, dh will probably feed her anytime between 11 and 12, if she does sleep through to anywhere between 5 and 7am that's anything from 5 hours to 7ish... should I be waking her 3 or 4 hourly or just letting her sleep? More concerned about my milk supply than her hunger, I'd imagine she'd wake me if hungry!

I would let her sleep I think - she'll wake if she is hungery - depends though if she is nw taking better feeds during the day and not so sleepy