DW still in agony after 2 weeks - your thoughts please

[Rollingpapa]

OK, so hubby here is rather worried about DW.

Wonderful new baby (DS), v chilled, capable of 3-4 hour sleeps (mainly during the day), but --

DW literally curling her toes in agony during every feed. Most so at latch-on.

Have tried:
shields - Medela smalls, DS didn't draw so well
pump - apparently v painful for DW, but in different way
Changing position - from across to underarm. Kind of helped, but not much
Breast-feeding expert - at local hospital, who said that the latch-on was good, but that she was still getting ridge on top of nipple

My question: is it meant to hurt at the beginning?! DW really frustrated by the feeling that she is doing something "wrong" and that the pain is all her "fault"

She's currently with her mum, and I'm in the office, so this is by way of gathering experienced thoughts on the subject...

Thank you anyone who can chip in!

Hi all - have been telling DW (at her mum's) about your superb comments, and she's heartened not to be alone in this. She's already started on the Guiness

Will print off the entire thread at lunchtime so I can go through it with her this afternoon.

Lovelymarslady - got the link, thank you

tiktok - will definitely look into the latch

Thank you all for reassuring this hubby about the many things that could help my DW.

Now understand why some people call the postnatal period the Fourth Stage of labour!

haven't read the whole thread but it is also worth saying that for some people it is NEVER anything less than toe-curling, despite good latch etc. certainly with my 4 children it was always unbearable. hence never got past 4 weeks. there is no shame in giving up and moving to a bottle if that is what she wants to do.... although it feels like the most difficult decision in the world at the time.

apologies if this has already been said.

Hi
I've breastfed two, both of whom were latched on correctly and gained weight nicely (according to our widwives and the baby scales). But it still took 3 or 4 weeks for the toe-curling (I remember it well!) to stop. My mother had the same on her babies. In my very inexpert opinion, it will hurt some women more and for longer than others, just like childbirth or any other kind of pain. It's just such a shame that considering breast is best and all that, that Mother Nature doesn't make it a little bit easier for us... It absolutely definitely will get easier and in another week or two she'll be popping baby onto boob as natural as breathing.
I used cream and Avent shields, but 2nd couldn't latch on properly with shields and got really frustrated, so I just had to grit my teeth and 'toughen up' I'm afraid.
Hope it gets better sooner rather than later. Stick at it!

Sounds like thrush to me....REALLY makes your toes curl when feeding with thrush,its so painful. I used to scream in pain it was so bad. I havent managed to read all the posts so sorry if im just repeting what others have said.

I'll be honest it took about six weeks for my nipple pain on the latch to settle with dd1. With my others the pains went on for a few weeks. I think it does chafe to begin with, no matter what they tell you, and you mipples just toughen up.

On the bright side I went on to feed my four into toddlerhood and loved it after the initial toe curling weeks.

Good luck to her. She's lucky to have such a caring dh.

Actually, thrush is a distinct possibility if the pain carries on throughout the feed. My thrush caused shooting pains after the feed too. Try the Breastfeeding Network for more details on thrush. It can be just on the nipples or inside the ducts,.

It can feel like feeding through broken glass when breastfeeding through thrush on the nipple, stabbing pains and just soreness in general. Have a look in your ds mouth if he has little white spots on his tounge then he may have thrush in his mouth too. Thrush can come after taking antibiotics. Has she taken any in the last 6 weeks? He can also just come when breastfeeding because the nipples are always damp and warm perfect home for fungal infections. Tell her to go to her gp and explain to him her that she is pretty sure she has thrush, he'll proberbly prescribe some daktarin cream for her nipples. If you find this doesnt work then go back and ask for fluconazole, its the only thing that got rid of my thrush. Hope this has helped and good luck. Let us know how it all goes.

Just wanted to add my support - so far I've had thrush twice while breastfeeding my ds (now 18 weeks). What really helped me through it was letting dh give ds a bottle of formula in the evening, just to give my poor nipples a break. It wasn't until ds was 14 weeks that GP noticed he was a little tongue tied, so that could explain some of the toe-curling pain I had. Your dw is doing a wonderful job - it helps to be told that as much as possible because everyone tells you breastfeeding shouldn't hurt, but when it does, you feel like such a failure. Good luck and hope everything sorts itself out

I do hope things for your dw improves soon. Did she have a fever? I was recently diagnosed with mastitis but midwife said the doctor had got it wrong and it was thrush ,classic symptoms are no fever, deep shooting pains, even more painful during let down, during feed and after feed. A lot of doctors don't seem to know that you can even get trush in breast, there is rarely vissible external signs on the breast and sometimes the baby has a white tongue. The Breastfeeding network (link is in a previous post) have really good info.

Rolling, that ridge across the top of your DW's nipple is a dead giveaway that the baby isn't getting the nipple far enough back in his mouth. It is caused by the nipple getting squashed between DS's tongue and the hard roof of his mouth.

During breastfeeding, the nipple is supposed to be against the soft palate at the back of baby's mouth, where it won't get rubbed, squashed or damaged.

Poss causes:

1 Baby not opening mouth wide enough. DW could try bringing him to the breast from slightly below so that he has to tip his head back, which will mean he can open wider (try for yourself how wide you can open your mouth when looking down and up to see the difference this makes)

2 Nipple being aimed straight into baby's mouth. Needs to be aimed into the upper part of the baby's gape if it's to get to the soft palate which is at the back of the roof of the mouth. Baby needs to have more of the undercurve of the breast in his mouth than of the upper curve.

3 Tongue tie in the baby. If tag of skin under his tongue is holding it down tightly and he can't raise it to scoop in a good mouthful of bereast, your DS has little choice but to use suction to keep DW's nipple in his mouth, and that ain't good for nips. If the baby's tongue is tight or bunched, the skin tag can be snipped - ask a health professional for a referral (but be prepared to push cos not all are aware of this very minor op) - and it usually makes all the difference in less than a day

Do try to see if one of the counsellors can actually watch a feed because squashed, stripy nipples are not always an easy problem to correct by remote - especially as your DW & DS have spent 2 weeks learning how to feed less than comfortably; it may take a little while to learn new habits. But it is eminently sortable, whatever the root cause, if you can get the right help. Also, a counsellor will spend time on how your DW is feeling about the whole business, which can be as useful as getting the mechanics sorted.

All the best

I had terrible pain, bleeding etc for about three weeks with both my children but I'd just say it is absolutely worth it in the end. I fed one for a year and another for 18 months. Suddenly you just find it's working and then you never look back. It is really, really hard when it's difficult to begin with but I'd just say from experience, hang in there if you can. (Conversely, if it's just too much just go with your instincts and please don't beat yourself up if you need to give up - it's not for everyone). Good luck!

Sympathies for your dw, Rollingpapa. Thoughtful of you to be supporting her via Mumsnet.

I experienced similar to cye, with cracked nipples to begin with (Lansinoh brilliant for us too - used it for months), and then letdown pain, at most feeds for the first three months or so. Midwife and bf counsellor likewise told us latch was fine. No thrush, mastitis or signs of anything else.

In a nutshell, I still have no idea why we had that pain, but it did recede with time. Refocusing on the latch/position every now and then helped, and after a few months, we were flying; if you're ruling out everything else, I feel sure it'll go away of its own accord. Two weeks is still very early days.

You could try looking at a website run by a Dr Jack Newman \link{www.thebirthden.com/Newman} (Google him with breastfeeding if the link doesn't work - I'm a computer idiot). He's got video cips you can download and look at again and again. He explains how to latch on properly. The man is a God in my eyes - from crying my eyes out one sunday evening after weeks of not feeding properly - 2 hours of video clips later and it's working well (now 5 months in). It's worth a try.

Good luck.

Hi all, final round-up:

• went with lazycow's recommended breast-feeding counsellor, who was BRILLIANT. No-nonsense, simple, and practical. Not cheap, but worth it.
• now at 7 weeks, feeding not painless, but DW's nipples massively better. No cracks, oozing, mastitis etc (touch wood, fingers crossed etc)
• also doing a top-up of organic formula after the 10pm feed (so say 11pm). Works a charm. DS now sleeps for 6+ hours through the night. This was on another tip we received.

Now just need to perfect my winding technique, as the little blighter sometimes looks like he's about to start breakdancing in his crib (he does a mean James Brown impression too...)

Once again, thanks all. Collectively, you rock.

HI,
well, I personally never got the hang of winding with Baby sitting on my lap and always prefered to wind with them over my shoulder and rubbing the Back of the Baby...