Read this shocking article about the damaging effects of formula and the immoral practices of the companies who peddle this junk.

[moondog]

From The Ecologist magazine.

Here.....

Grim reading.

hi corriedale, I know tiktok vouched for it and I'm sure she's right but I'd still prefer to be able to trace the refs myself. you know how it is, you read an article and it sounds like it's making wild claims because you've never heard these things before, so you want to know exactly what it's based on (ie not some study of 5 people published by some tiny trotskist publication or something) kwim?

Blu- I'm trying to email you via people we both know.

I think part of the problem is that the militant breastfeeders will not accept any excuse for failure to breastfeed (although strangely enough they will often accept "I didn't want to"). No physically of course I could have breastfed ds3, I'd fed previously for more than 3 and a half years, of course I could physically have fed him. However cicumstantially (spelling???) I could not. My particular set of circumstances during the times of ds3's birth meant that I could not build up my supply. What I found useful at the time, was a pro-breastfeeder (which I was too of course) recognising that, and rather than saying "you just need to do X", saying "well actually your situation here is very difficult, you know that you will have to do x, y and z to successfully breastfeed, but you will have to be realistic about whether you can manage it". Way more use.

It's fine to be passionate about something, it's fine to be want to share that, but why try and bully people into it, why berate them with "well you could have physically so you should have?". It just gets people's backs up, and it might actually have been practically impossible if not physically.

I'm shocked to read how much guilt people carry around about not breastfeeding. Where does that come from?

I had a terrible birth with my ds very long drawn out labour when I got onto the ward and tried breastfeeding it dident happen I was tired my new baby was tired and I ended up in floods of tears after about 2 hrs of the midwife sticking my boob in his mouth, they took him away and gave him bottle. I really wanted to breastfeed but when he came back in the morning a happy full up baby I was quiet happy for him to stay on formula milk, too many people try and shove breastfeeding down your throat and I think they make you feel very guilty if you cant breastfeed your baby. My ds is now 2 and he hasnt had any major problems touch wood he is a bright little chap and I love him dearly and I must say my next baby is due in jan and I shall be bottle feeding again. Im not posting this to cause a debate with anyone I just wanted you to know of my experiance of bottle feeding and I wish all mums best of luck whatever choices you make xxx

I wonder if the way forward would be for formula to be an prescription only item?? It would never happen I know. But that way, the formula would have to be fully nutritionally examined and improved etc. It would have to be safe. Also it wouldn't cost mothers who need to use formula. Surely food for babies should be free? It would however, cost GP's and health professionals which would therefore immediately mean a great increase in the promotion and encouragement of breast feeding. Impractical but a nice thought for me anyhow!

"I think part of the problem is that the militant breastfeeders will not accept any excuse for failure to breastfeed"

Who are the 'militant breastfeeders', jimjams? Are you talking about people like me?

Oh and I agree I was shocked by some of the emotive expressions of guilt on here.

Data schmata. OF COURSE breastmilk is the best food for babies in most cases. It's made specifically for them.

I still think that the people who need to be convinced of the benefits of breastfeeding are a) not likely to be reading "The Ecologist"; b) not likely to read a thread such as this.

For "The Ecologist" to say formula it isn't even the 2nd best choice is not really true; in most cases, neither maternal EBM nor donor EMB are available, so it is the de facto 2nd best.

This is the headline summary from the first, properly referenced article that F&Z linked to:

"In a multivariate model, several factors remained significant: prone sleep position, soft surface, pillow use, bed sharing other than with parent(s) alone, and not using a pacifier."

So bottle-feeding doesn't make it into the 'remaining significant' factors.

And I don't see anyone saying we should all switch to pacifier use, which would also seem sensible. Because the data would lead us to believe that if we don't, we are endangering the lives of our babies.

I think that as has been said lack of support and education and societal perceptions are at the root of low uptake of bf in this country.Very sad IMO.I feel that what has upset a lot of people on this thread is that they have been made to feel crap about ff by some rather holier than thou attitudes.My heart goes out to any mum who has tried to breastfeed and encountered difficulties,or was unable to breastfeed.I wonder what the young breastfeeding mum who was admitted to the ward I work on would think of all this anti ff malarkey.She HAD to stop bf much against her wishes as she needed some lifesaving chemotherapy treatment.

i agree.

we shouldn' be berating those who FF but helping them to be sucessful at BF.
there are and always have been, those who simply cannot breastfeed, they shouldnt be made to feel they are a bad parent because of it.

I think that the derease in breastfeeding is a complicated one. There are many reasons why new mothers do not feel able to breatsfeed.
working mothers/embarassment/lifestyle.....thousands probably. maybe the simplest is simply because it has just gone out of fashion.
maybe women from the past couple of generations have beleived the advertisings saying that formula is indeed breastmilk but better. they then loose that breastfeeding influence from their own mothers. im sure many of you who BF have had help advice and support from your own mothers.

Also...and im going to sound controversial here but...many midwives/HV are staright out of college and dont have children of their own. they have no practicle experiance of breastfeeding and if their own parents formula fed (as i have described above) then they would have no experiance of BF.

its like me reading a book and then trying to fix my car. Knowing the recipe doesn't mean you can bake a good cake.it takes experiance and practice.

I've read all the article & it raises serious questions about the quality of formula - if there is a grain of truth in them, this issue should be examined as a matter of urgency. Does the gov/NHS (leave alone the formula manufacturers) actually want to confront the arguments presented in this article though?

This however doesn't to detract at all from the fact that lots of women can't bf, mainly IMO because they lack the support to do so (happened to me 1st time round).

It's a shame that this title has put so many people off actually reading the article and has, understandably, upset others.

Jimjams - I have just emailed Blu's addy to you

in some countries you can only buy it in chemists, not on prescription though it has to be said

I'm not thinking about anyone in particular tbh F&Z. If I was to pull out an individual who emobodied what I thought of as a militant bfeeder it would be the bfeeding counsellor I consulted with ds1 (who I did bfeed for over a year- no thanks to her though). I just mean a "type" who don't actually listen to your circumstances, but just repeat over and over again that only x tiny % can't actually physically breastfeed. Which is blindingly obvious but doesn't mean that person x in situation y will be able to bfeed even if she could in a different situation.

I had lots of bfeeding support with ds3, not least over 3 years of experience myself. The only way I could have managed it was 2 maybe 3 weeks of someone else to do everything that needed doing, and someone to wave a magic wand that led ds1 to understand that he shouldn't climb on me and push ds3 out of the way, or drag me off ever 5 minutes, and somoene who understood what his various sounds combined with gestures meant so I didn't have to get up and investigate everyone. Unfortunately that sort of help doesn't exist. Hence my supply was destined to remain low. Yet of course I could physically have breasfed. Didn't see any breatfeeding counsellors offering to chase him round the house at 11pm though (as happened after ds2 was born bed time went totally to pot for a month after ds3's birth). That would have been the best bfeeding support they could have provided. Obviously its not in their remit.

And this is not an attempt to blame bfeeding counsellors- who do a stirling job in offering advice unpaid, but to point out that even with excellent support that sometimes the type of support needed is not available.

hiya singersgirl, I first heard about the pacifier thing from a US website and apparently lots of mums there are now advised to use pacifiers to reduce SIDS - we are of course behind the times. I wonder if the advice not to bottle feed is not on there because of pressure from formula manufacturers? Obviously, pacifier makers would be delighted to promote their product to reduce SIDS so maybe that's why it's becoming a better known preventative measure?

Thanks Soapbox

wrinkly- the addest thing is people like the young mum you mention are the ones who end up feeling guilty. No one should feel guilty, but its particularly sad when people who need to be able to take life saving drugs do. I don't understand where the guilt comes from though. Is it from the use of words like "junk"?

I think ff mums do carry guilt round with them and I can tell you why because people such as health visitors, midwifes, doctors etc make you feel bad for ff my health visitor made me feel terrible when she left after her first visit I was in tears and guess what she dident have kids of her own sometimes people are too by the book about things, there is no doubt about it mums are there to provide milk for ther babies and yes it is the best milk for them but untill you are a ff you dont realise how much pressure you get from people its not a sin its whats right for your baby.

got to go, but I enjoyed reading that article and its made me worry about what exactly is put into those formula milks and how much pressure the govts put on the companies to produce the best quality product they can from the best sources possible. I also bet that people in poorer countries get a really shoddy product sold to them. Poor them. They think they're giving their kids what rich people give their babies so it must be good for them.

i think the guilt does indeed come from such terms JJ.
We are now being told that FF is incredibly damaging to a small child. that they can suffer SIDS, get asthma, be small etc

the argument that its ok to feed formula if there is a medical choice but not if you can physically do it...is confusing.
if its bad for one child its bad for them all surely?

we see so much information telling us that its a cop out to FF and so when we are unable to BF we feel we are failing our children before we have even started.
therefore we feel guilt.

What an interesting thread.
Like many others, I don't see the problem in pointing out what's in formula, personally I find that interesting. (I mainly formula fed my ds.) I haven't read the article, but will.
Moondog, I am glad to see you have been called to account for your unfeeling attitude. I have never understood this in you, I'd say nearly all your other posts show a funny, highly intelligent and compassionate person behind them (the other exception would be the PND-related posts).
I hope you take note in particular of Tiktok's excellent posts. As usual she has said what I would like to in a meansured (and infinitely more authoritative) way.

Oh bugger, I am Pruni btw.

Attempts to find successful ways to artificially or "hand rear" infants have been going on since the stone age. There always has been a need for an alternative. The current alternatives are no doubt the best there have ever been historically.

In the article a reference is made to "excessive levels of toxic or heavy metals, including aluminium, manganes, cadmium and lead" in infant formulas. If someone can reference that for me via the original printed article then I would be grateful.

As an alternative to mothers' own milk either breastfed or ebm has anyone outside of hospital ever encountered milk bank milk? Or even less likely a wet nurse? These are not realistic alternatives for the vast majority of infants.

I would also like to see some evidence of the golden age of breast feeding when"women became their own experts through the trial and error of the experience itself"..I think that there was in fact a very high infant mortality rate (one in ten under twos a hundred years ago)as women struggled to feed children by any means.

Many more children survive now because of the option of hygienic early feeding who would have died in the past.

Socially, we seem to be facing the same difficulties over persuading mothers to breastfeed as we were a hundred years ago, but if anything there is less of a will to support it than ever.

I think the way forward is to support mothers, but unluckily at the moment it does seem to fall to zealots who unintentionally can have the reverse effect.

I know exactly why some socio economic groups fall through this net. It is because they are intimidated by older middle class mothers and health service reps who patronise them instead of supporting them.

Fantastic post Zippi

Jeepers, so it's my fault they don't breastfeed in Chelmsley Wood? As an older middle-class mum, I mean...

Surely the sexualisation of breasts, unscrupulous practices and advertising by the formula companies, the absence of support by partners, mothers, sisters, etc., lack of training of HVs, lack of political will to do anything about all of the above, has a heck of a lot to do with it as well? Or am I just trying to avoid accepting my own share of guilt as a patronising middle-class older mother ?