Pope urges breastfeeding in Sistine Chapel

[marmitecat]

news.sky.com/story/1194030/pope-urges-breastfeeding-in-sistine-chapel

Go Pope Francis

I have to admit I felt a bit awkward feeding in church with dc1 so this is pretty much the ultimate way of dispelling that worry.

DuskandShiver, the idea of a just war is not one peculiar to the RC church.

no, it is not, but in the Catholic church its pragmatic nuanced approach sits alongside an unnuanced approach to human life when at the expense of women's agency. It is the contrast in that context which is interesting.

I am not really anti-Catholic. I just don't think that it is superficial, silly, selfish, or whatever else has been implied on here, to accept the role that the RC grants women.

You are ignoring the nuanced idea of free will if you think agency is not allowed.

Well, they are non sequiturs when cut and pasted into a single post. Rather less so when read in context!

Views on abortion are always going to be a very personal thing, in some ways it's pointless debating it.

And the RC church is entitled to have any view it wants on abortion.

What it shouldn't be entitled to do is to force its views by law on entire countries of people who may or may not agree with them.

(and lol at 'shrill'. You'll be calling us harpies next.)

I don't think my ideas about gradual change from cells to embryo etc. during pregnancy was particularly half-baked. They were related to an appeal for a more "pragmatic nuanced approach" as Dusk describes so eloquently, and a hope generally for more compassion.
Obviously in brief posts on a forum not every point will be fully expounded, but hopefully most posters will understand IYKWIM.

The catholic doctrine on abortion is very clear, and obviously the Pope believes it to be right. Nobody would expect any different. It's the influence that the church has on many countries' health policy- specifically policy on women's health- that is the issue.

Oops,cross posted with squdgy. Sorry!

lol Curlew. Shrill minds obviously thinking alike!

"Nobody would expect any different" curlew

Well, I would hope for different. Interesting to read that Catholic church used to "allow" abortion up to "quickening" - that seems a much more reasonable and compassionate doctrine.
I don't see why these absolutist doctrines should go un-challenged (by some) when as Dusk so wisely says the church is quite capable of being flexible and pragmatic (with more nuanced teachings) when it suits them to be so (such as regarding warfare)

Has anyone posted evidence for the abortion up to "quickening" thing? I've never come across it before.

It's the influence that the church has on many countries' health policy- specifically policy on women's health- that is the issue.

I'm not disagreeing here but how, exactly, does the Catholic church influence this and in which countries? I have heard of Sharia law but not Roman Catholic law.

Tried to get an abortion in Ireland recently?

I've just been googling the "abortion up to quickening" thing. Very interesting. As an aside, apparently the a Catholic Church used to teach that boy foetuses become "ensouled" and therefore human at 40 days gestation, and girls at 80.......

acid for someone who 'argues for a living' you really don't think things through very thoroughly do you?

Fascinating curlew (that sounds vaguely sarcastic, it isn't meant to be!)
There would have to be a difference between boy and girl foetuses wouldn't there ?
But interesting.

But the Church does not make these laws, politicians do. Catholic countries tend to be democracies. Even in France, Italy, Spain, Poland and Portugal, abortions are legal. I'm not aware of the Catholic Church having a direct influence in law making. Yes, it will influence people's opinions and how they might vote but I'm not aware of any state that is forced to take a certain line by the church. Even in Ireland abortion is not unlawful if it is to save the mother's life.

The point I am making is that no-one has to accept the Church's views. We are all influenced by all sorts of things and then we draw our own conclusions based on the experiences and knowledge we have before us.

Also, it is pretty clear that the vast majority of people choose not to follow all of the church's teachings.

Your argument (Curlew) is that the Church has some very bad aspects to it and it controls people's lives adversely (women's in particular). The Pope is as bad as any other because he is not changing these fundamental issues. Therefore, any good things that he does are simple publicity stunts to gain popularity (more followers?). This even includes his "efforts" to address child sex abuse. There is no good in this man - he is conning the world into making it think that he might be progressive.

The church should not have so many followers because all these people who follow the church are making the world an evil patriarchal and misogynistic place. The Catholics are brainwashing the politicians to pass laws that will harm women. Therefore, the Pope is an evil force.

Is that right?

Who's side are you on aciddrops?

Nope- that's not what I think at all. And it's also not what my posts indicate that I think. But hey ho. Why let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Evil isn't the right word - it implies that the church is full of evil people which isn't the case. It's the rigid doctrine combined with the political power and influence which is the problem.

A bit like calling Margaret Thatcher or George Bush or Tony Blair evil - I don't think they are evil people, but they are/were people with a lot of power who put in place policies which some people say caused harm and were therefore 'not good'. That is not to say that they never put into any 'good' policies though.

But at least they were elected, and could be removed from power when they became too unpopular.

I have no idea whether the new Pope is a genuinely 'nice' person or not, but if I were in charge of PR at the Vatican I'd certainly be putting someone like him out there.

Some years back, I was going through an awful lot, and the Catholic priest in my town (I am Protestant) is the reason I am here today. Man, he is so great....just like the Pope, a truly GODLY person. How people can condemn people over the actions of some (let us all condemn men for they commit almost all the crimes, right??) is beyond me.

I have to say, I love this Pope. I am Anglican but the Catholic Church has really helped me. Saved me, by virtue of the good people in it.

Because the pope as head of the catholic church bears the responsibility of those within his organisation. The buck stops with him.
That's part of the job. He is judged by the actions of those who work for him.