Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Original poster

Pope urges breastfeeding in Sistine Chapel

402 replies

marmitecat · 12/01/2014 21:30

news.sky.com/story/1194030/pope-urges-breastfeeding-in-sistine-chapel

Go Pope Francis Grin

I have to admit I felt a bit awkward feeding in church with dc1 so this is pretty much the ultimate way of dispelling that worry.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 16/01/2014 01:21

Discussion?
It's hard to discuss non sequiturs such as those C&P'd by Annunziata.

MidniteScribbler · 16/01/2014 05:27

Meanwhile, in asking us to respect your position DuskandShiver, you're willing to be openly critical of the choices that others have made. Pot, kettle.

curlew · 16/01/2014 06:18

I am very sorry if you find any criticism or questioning of the Catholic Church shocking-but surely on a thread like this you must have expected to see some?

HoneyandRum · 16/01/2014 06:22

I have never met a Catholic (male or female) who thinks women are "less human than men". This is not my lived experience and is not church teaching.

DuskandShiver I respect your own experiences and decision to leave the church but that does not make you "dead to me".

The complexity, diversity and localism within the worldwide church precludes saying that all women have to relate to and agree with feminisms as defined by western women, especially those outside the church.

For the record I am a feminist as is DH.

I also believe Jesus was a feminist. Some will agree and some disagree, demonstrating that there are many views and philosophical ideas that can be classed as feminist.

How this is played out in my life does not include standing up in Mass shouting "Help, help! I'm being oppressed!" or saying to my very gentle and loving parish priest "Stop objectifying me as a whore, you bastard."

FreddoBaggyMac · 16/01/2014 06:42

I think that what people don't concentrate on when the Catholic Church's views on abortion are looked it is that the catholic view is that a baby is a baby right from conception. ie, in the view of catholic doctrine there is absolutely no difference between killing a two week old foetus and a two week old newborn baby. Based on this view abortion can never ever be justified (Can you think of anything that would justify killing a two week old baby?) and it is horrific and all the things that Pope Francis mentioned. If you wish to challenge the Catholic church's view on abortion what you really need to focus on is challenging the belief that a human life is a human life right from conception, and that's very difficult to do as it all depends on what you personally believe...
I fully support the Church's stance on abortion and can't find fault with a single thing Pope Francis has said, but I respect that other people have different beliefs.

curlew · 16/01/2014 06:54

Of course a devout catholic would be completely on board with what Francis says. And of course he is going to be strongly opposed.

My issue is with his characterization as a liberal, a forward thinker, a moderniser. With the thought that people who have left the church because of what the non catholic world thinks of as its reactionary views going back because Francis is somehow "different". He may be, but nothing he has said so far shows him to be any different on issues of social and sexual doctrine than his prdecessors.

curlew · 16/01/2014 07:01

Sorry, "of course he is going to be strongly opposed to abortion"

mathanxiety · 16/01/2014 07:07

'I am very sorry if you find any criticism or questioning of the Catholic Church shocking-but surely on a thread like this you must have expected to see some'

That's not an honest comment, Curlew.

curlew · 16/01/2014 07:09

What do you mean?

mathanxiety · 16/01/2014 07:14

'My issue is with his characterization as a liberal, a forward thinker, a moderniser...'

This is a straw man argument.

Anyone who has characterised him as liberal, etc., has projected their own hopes or maybe fears onto him.

It's not exactly fair to him to shoot him down for not being a liberal, or a moderniser, etc., when he himself has not claimed to be any of those things.

And it's not fair either, to shoot him down for not being a liberal or a moderniser or whatever else you think he should be without giving him any credit for saying he wants to see a significant shift in emphasis by the church, a shift he has tried to illustrate by many choices about his personal lifestyle, abode, ministry and personal outreach.

mathanxiety · 16/01/2014 07:17

I take issue with your use of the phrase 'I am very sorry if you find any criticism or questioning of the Catholic Church shocking'

-- I do not think anyone here finds 'any criticism of the Catholic Church' shocking.

I don't know why you think this characterisation of opinions that are different from yours is appropriate.

mathanxiety · 16/01/2014 07:19

What people object to is the shrill tone. Nobody is saying the RC church is in any way perfect.

curlew · 16/01/2014 07:51

Annunziata c and p a whole series of comments which she said she found shocking. They were mostly simply criticisms or comments on the Catholic Church. That is why I said that I was sorry she was shocked by criticisms. I am.

Your point about people projecting is very apposite. That is why I said the characterization of Francis as a liberal, moderniser....etc. My main point on this thread is that he has not at any point said anything which indicates that he thinks of himself in that way- rather the contrary. There are many people who want him to be, and his self deprecating, man of the people personality is very attractive. But it would be a shame if people made decisions based on that, rather than what he actually says.

And shrill? Wow. The only person who could possibly be described as "shrill" is not on the "my" side of the "discussion"!!!!!!!

MidniteScribbler · 16/01/2014 08:02

I am very sorry if you find any criticism or questioning of the Catholic Church shocking-but surely on a thread like this you must have expected to see some?

It's expected, because there is a large percentage of the population that claims that their 'enlightenment' makes them open minded, yet the slightest mention of religion leaves them preaching about its evils more fervently than any member of any organised religion.

newyearhere · 16/01/2014 09:09

I have never met a Catholic (male or female) who thinks women are "less human than men". This is not my lived experience and is not church teaching.

They won't phrase it like that, no. They'll say something like "women and men are equal but different". And insist that it's "equal" to deny women from being priests, because of this "difference".

curlew · 16/01/2014 10:08

midnitescribbler- my comments, as far as I recall, on this thread have been confined to the attutude of, and the attitudes towards the new pope. I have not said anything about religion generally.

ComposHat · 16/01/2014 10:20

What an incredibly free thinking, liberal, wonderful human being. Presumably he'll get round to child abuse, the use of condoms, the Vatican Bank and the role of women shortly?

I agree wholeheartedly.

On a personal level, he seems quite likeable, but it is a measure of how backward and barbaric his predecessors were that the infinitesimally small steps he has taken to reforming the Church can be presented as a radical departure.

atthestrokeoftwelve · 16/01/2014 10:40

I think any discussion about the pope inevitably will take religion into account. What is the pope if not head of a church?

curlew · 16/01/2014 10:46

An it is incredibly frustrating when people come onto a discussion thread and try to rule out some topics. Clerical child abuse, for example, is obviously one of the hot issues Francis will have to deal with- and how he deals with it is very important for how his pontificate is viewed. Saying that is not accusing anyone of abusing children now, but calling it "that old chestnut" and so on is ignoring the fact that it is a live issue and one that previous popes have not handled well. It wild be nice to be able to say things like this without accusations of "shrillness", "ranting" and being anti religion.

JugglingBackwardsAndForwards · 16/01/2014 10:59

And have to pick up on something Freddo said at 06.42 .....

"in the view of catholic doctrine there is absolutely no difference between killing a 2 week old foetus and a 2 week old newborn baby"

Well surely any reasonable person has to take exception to the idea of there being "absolutely no difference" To fail to see the difference is to lack a sense of reality and also of compassion I think.

Perhaps if there was more female input (through having women priests for one thing) the Catholic church wouldn't persist with such out of touch, absolutist, theoretical doctrines, and would begin to show more humanity, compassion, and relevance.

SmudgyDVDsAreEvil · 16/01/2014 11:01

Annunziata - I do find it difficult to understand why you are shocked that people can be critical of the Catholic church, and express that criticism openly.

Like it or not, religion is like politics - some would even say it IS politics. You aren't going to get everyone agreeing about how marvellous your particular religion/political party is (unless you live in North Korea, I suppose).

JugglingBackwardsAndForwards · 16/01/2014 11:12

I think the reason why the thread has developed as it has is summed up quite well in the slightly cynical/challlenging (?) post Compos quotes just upthread ...

"What an incredible, free-thinking, wonderful human being. Presumably he'll get round to child abuse, the use of condoms, the Vatican Bank, and the role of women shortly"

(possibly the development of the discussion would have seemed more acceptable if the thread had started off in chat or AIBU - but I'm not sure it really makes any difference?)

curlew · 16/01/2014 11:24

That cynical comment was me. I apologize for it, but I do get so exasperated when people only have to do one relatively normal thing to be lauded to the heavens. "oh, look, Prince William's just like us, he's cuddling his son " " Your husband's so good- I saw him in the supermarket yesterday" "Pope Francis is such a man of the people, he's not wearing the Gucci shoes" (I have to admit to being and bit perversely upset about that- I did love the red shoes........)

FreddoBaggyMac · 16/01/2014 11:32

Hi Curlew. I think you are right is saying that Pope Francis is not likely to change church doctrine in any major way. He is 'Different' to Pope Benedict I think because he puts the value of people first, before rules and regulations, and emphasises that God's love is there for everyone. Pope Benedict was not so much a 'people person' and far more hung up on putting rules and regulations before love and people (imo). He was a less popular Pope simply because his priorities were different.

JugglingBackwards, with regard to my point that you picked up on, perhaps I should have said that in a catholic view there is MORALLY no difference. Remember I said that there was 'No difference' BASED on the belief that a child is a human life right from conception - that was the whole point of my post, in Catholic doctrine there is morally no difference between killing a two week old foetus and a new born baby because they are both regarded as human beings in their own right created by God.

SmudgyDVDsAreEvil · 16/01/2014 11:37

And if the thread was only about the Pope and breastfeeding, the discussion would would be rather short. No one has come on to say 'what a dreadful thing for him to do - encourage women to get their boobs out in public'. Everyone has pretty much agreed that er, yes, women should be 'allowed' and even encouraged to breastfeed wherever they want to.

It was the comments about what a jolly marvellous and liberal person he must therefore be which sparked off the more cynical comments on Catholic doctrine in general, and how this Pope won't and indeed can't change anything very much about that.