Educate me: why would you not want your baby to have the colostrum if no medical reason?

[RainbowsFriend]

Just found out that a couple of my social circle are not attempting breastfeeding second time around, but will be going for bottles from day one. No medical problems/issues, just said it would be easier to have bottles and a toddler than breastfeed.

I didn't want to pry, and I respect their choice of course, but I'm really curious why you would not even express the colostrum to give your child - I thought it was soooo important for the immune system.

I admit I'm a bit biased as I still bfeed DD 22 months, and do use it as a parenting tool to a certain extent. We massively struggled at first as DD had a missed tongue tie that wasn't picked up til 5 months, so I know what it's like to have pain and struggle, and I remember from when our toddlers were little that these mums had to give up fairly quickly first time around and know how difficult it was. But why not express a bit of colostrum?

So please let me know so I can understand better?

[tiktok]

I do think ff mothers deserve as much support as any other mother (and many mothers are both bf and ff, anyway). But a support group is not the answer, unless you can ascertain 'what sort of ff mother are you?' at the door :)

[blueshoes]

YouMaySay, I agree that information on ff is readily available. I did both bf and ff. I do not have family close by or friends with babies to ask. I found all the info on ff I needed from instructions that came with the bottle, formula containers etc. You don?t need a ?support? group to teach you how to ff. Once you?ve learnt it, there is nothing more to it. There are generally no more emotional minefields to cross that require ongoing support unless as tiktok says, you are a reluctant bottle feeder with guilt issues (paraphrasing badly).

On the other hand, my HV, who tried her darndest to help me on bf-ing (because my dd had a health condition), came up with such shockers about bf-ing (?you must eat fatty foods because it thickens your milk?, get her onto formula) that to this day I shudder at the damage she did in those early days when my dd was not gaining weight and I needed the most bf-ing support.

[AmberLeaf]

I think the difference in support groups for ff is that once ff is established (in as early as the first few days) in terms of quantities, use of equipment etc, what else is there to discuss in terms of technicalties as it has been put? Information can easily be sought on the internet or if all else fails on the back of the bottle/steriliser boxes and as far as i know (and correct me if im wrong) but the quantites in relation to ages/weight are indicated on the formula box

But people are saying they would like/have liked support for FF related issues, so there is clearly more to it than what you have stated above, maybe it is the attitudes that they face when asking for info/support that are the problem above accessing it.

Whether that support comes from a 'group' or just non judgemental attitudes is debatable, but there is a need.

Amber, a group for 'ff support' that has members who are delighted to be ff, who never wanted to bf in the first place for whatever reason and who do not believe that there is a health impact of their choice cannot be the same place for support as women who need support because it was not their choice to ff, and who feel upset about it

Maybe, but it sounds as though you are implying that there are no issues or quandries for mothers that outrightly choose FF from the start? Sometimes there aren't, but sometimes there are.

I think the sort of 'support' needed, is probably less of the group/practical kind and more of the 'don't judge' kind tbh.

That said, there is still a definite lack of instructional advice on FF available in the early stages of parenthood/pregnancy and hospitals can make it harder for those Mums who choose FF from the start in a way that they didn't used to [ie no disposable bottles of formula and expecting Mums to bring in their own sterilising equipment onto wards with less than ideal hygiene standards], I understand the theory behind this, but given that they don't provide BF support [or enough of it] it does to me seem wrong.

It looks like we are in the territory of who is more 'worthy' of support though, so I am probably wasting my breath/typing energies!

[Lurksome]

I hired a doula who told me babies are fussy in the evening because our western diets to not consist of protein in the morning. So guess who woke up and ate fatty protein bars and shakes for breakfast for months. Thank God for kellymom and mn!

[MERLYPUSS]

Breastfeeding twins is shit. I never went outside the house as I was too self concious to feed in public. I managed to combination feed them, in tandem, for almost 3 months. I hated it. Always sneeking away from visitors.
I have chronic epilepsy and was alway scared that the fatige on my body (not to mention the shit in the drugs I take that they ingested) would cause a seizure and I would harm them. I ended up ff in the end as when they cried I would feel guilty that they were having more second hand epilepsy chemicals.
I was also in high dependancy for the 1st 48hrs so have no idea if they had colostrum.

[tiktok]

Amber, of course choosing to ff from the start does not mean you don't have questions or quandries of an emotional or otherwise nature.

What I am saying that the worst place to get support for these is in a group with ff mothers who are attending because they are broken-hearted/guilty/scared and who wanted to breastfeed anyway.

Mothers who use formula, partially or fully, from the start or at any future point, need correct information. They need to know that babies thrive best when they are fed responsively according to their needs (not according to a schedule or amount written on the side of the tin); they need to know the reasons for safe preparation of powdered formula; they need to know brand name does not matter for most babies...and a load of other stuff, which can and should come from an HCP who has no judgmental or critical agenda at play. None of this is a lot to ask :)

[Lynz1987]

A mother who is ff does need support afterwards not just setting it up in the begining I've experienced DD not taking the bottle problems with different bottles changing formula different amounts too much not dnough it changed daily its not as easy as ppl think and HV tend not to have much advice to give.

[AmberLeaf]

which can and should come from an HCP who has no judgmental or critical agenda at play. None of this is a lot to ask

It should yes, but it often doesn't which is where the problem lies.

I am also aware, through a friend, of how unhelpful HVs can be to BF Mums, which has reminded me that I wanted to pose a question/query/ask for advice on a BF issue on behalf of my friend, so may pop over to the feeding board and ask!

[tiktok]

Merlypuss :( :(

What might have helped you?

[tiktok]

Lynz, you are right - mothers who use formula may well have problems that are not resolved by reading the package, and you are right that these can arise some time after the newborn period.

Sometimes, babies can appear to be reacting badly to the formula and they may be sick, or constipated, or uncomfortable, or show signs of intolerance. A good HCP will be able to explore these concerns with the mother and help her decide if her baby is actually ill or not. As you say, deciding on the amounts to give, type of bottle, type of teat, can also lead to questions. Again, a good HCP should be able to help here.

The big difference in support, though, is that the cultural norm is to formula feed - even with all its problems and questions. Mothers in our society may breastfeed with very little confidence and their choice to breastfeed can be very fragile. That's where the group support for breastfeeding comes in . It is very strange that you think these important groups are somehow unfair to you as a formula feeder :(

[myrubberduck]

I would have thought that a group of happy confident ff mums would would be the ideal place for a mum who wanted to bf but could not- rather than a group of other despondent mums who also 'failed' at bf... Might help her deal with it positively and move on?

[YouMaySayImADreamer]

Tiktok i agree and you actually say what i was trying to say better than i do. I would more likely as a bf mum turn to my hv for technical advise on feeding, as is intended of their role (whether they be helpful or not is another topic entirely) whereas i would turn to a bf support group for moral support which would help me continue feeding, and i think this is their intended purpose.

Noone is saying ff is 'easy' as i dont think any aspect of caring for a newborn with no prior experience is easy. But bf is notoriously difficult - it is (can be for many) emotionally and physically draining in a way that ff just isnt. Thats no slate on ff by any means but its just the way it is. I have often heard bf mothers talk of wanting to 'give up' for various reasons, but have never heard ff be such a strain that ff mothers wanted to give up! Support groups are for many bf mothers just that little bit of support they need to keep going (if thats what they want to do).

This is not to say ff mothers dont need technical help too but this can be gained from hv and no matter what their opinion on you ff, no hv is going to leave your child to starve if you have tried every brand of bottle and they still wont take one (just an example of one of the problems you mentioned). Many of the problems mentioned to do with ff are one-off, resolvable problems which can be addressed through trial and error (e.g.trying a diff brand of bottle or formula). Whereas the challenges of bf often require more long term support because they cant be resolved as they just come part and parcel of bf (e.g. societal and personal feelings towards bf in public, the effect of long term bf on social/work life, the physical strain of prolonged cluster feeding etc).

[tiktok]

duck, why would a group of 'happy, confident' ff mothers need a support group? :) They wouldn't even be there in the first place! If you are happy and confident, you don't go to support groups!

The ones who are at a support group because they felt in need of support, after choosing to ff from birth, would be the ones who are still resentful and angry (like some of the ff mothers who posted here), who don't accept the health effects of formula and who think bf mothers are superior and judgmental.

How's that gonna help someone who wishes she wasn't using formula?

[Geckoandthemonkey]

Hubbahubba you sound like a nice person. I'm 6ft tall, slim, dare I say attractive young mum who has Bf both her ex's beyond a year without it interfering with sex, etc...
I hope your ex's grow up as ignorant as you are.

[Geckoandthemonkey]

'dc's' not ex's! Hahaha

[MERLYPUSS]

TIKTOK

You know what. I dont think anything would've helped. My OH is asian and my in laws told me only 'village girls' bf'd. Brainwashed by milk companies to think if you can't afford to spend on formular you are poor.
My mum is dead and I have no positive role models re BF. She once told me it was abnormal/rude to bf in public (when I was very young) but she had massive boobs and was incredibly self concious of them.
My health visitor was rubbish an I am sorry to say that the NCT were a bit daft too having very little advice for bf twins. When I asked about the epilepsy point I was given photocopied quotes from books with no evidence. One that sticks in my mind was 'BFing for epileptic mothers is beneficial for mothers and babies' and that was it. How? I think being an older mum I kind of thought that I should know and not bother HCPs as they would laugh at me. I was told so much crap about keeping the boys things separate in case they got each others germs. They were drinking each other's wee inside me FFS and sucking each others hands in the cot. I suddenly had an epiphany and thought, you know what, if they have beeing feeding off my blood supply (full of drugs) a bit of breast milk isn't gonna hurt too much - the drugs were prob more concentrated when i was carrying. Re the germs when born I didn't bother segregating unless they were poorly.
Alas this epiphany came too late for me as I never really got the hang of bf to get really going. I just wish I was told the fact from the word go. That it could be bloody hard but would be worth persevering.
Five years on I still feel a failure.

[tiktok]

:( Merlypuss....what a sad story, and one that shows good information and moral support can make a difference. You outline loads of things that should have helped, and didn't....clearly you sought a lot of help and it was lacking. TAMBA are good on breastfeeding and twins, and the NCT should have referred you to them if the counsellor you spoke to could not come up with much. You should also have been pointed in the direction of decent info about epilepsy drugs and bf - it is out there, but you have to know where to look.

Your story is one of struggle and challenge, not 'failure' - too many women end up personally 'blaming' themselves for not bf, when actually the experience of bf is complex and related to many social and cultural and physical constraints, of which you had many.

[AliceWChild]

Merlypuss you didn't fail. Society around you failed for creating a difficult situation for you and not supporting you. You did the best you could in a situation not of your making. You certainly didn't fail.

[littleginger]

I gave up breastfeeding after one week and never attempted to express before my milk came in but after seeing it ooze out after a feed (not the nicest way of describing it) i dont know how you would manage to express. I found it impossible to do even after milk had come in! Also i dunno if ypu could even express enough to keep up with the demand since baby wanting boob is relentless.

I wanted to breastfeed throughout pregnancy because of the health benefits. Tbh i felt really weird about it because i hadnt thought of my breasts like that before but i comr round and attended all the antenatal classes and did research on internet to be as fully prepared as possible re latch, positions, expressing etc.

Me and OH were shocked by how ridiculously hard it was! I dont know anyone who has breastfed before so was relying on nhs antenatal classes to inform me. All they did is draw a big boob on a whiteboard with a load of wiggly lines as 'milk ducts'. My LO had a perfect latch and didnt lose hardly any weight in that period when its typical of them to. Yet i gave up after one week because i was exhausted from traumatic birth and had about 2 hours of broken sleep in each of those days because of the screams whenever LO was away from the boob. OH barely held her because of this and i worried that they wouldnt bond. I hardly even saw him. I tried to express so he could feed her and 'bond' but that failed. So i gave up after one week but it felt like a year! I was so disappointed with the MW who did antenatal classes for not mentally preparing people.

All you ghear is that mums give up bfing because LO wasnt getting enough milk. I think it is more likely that people are shocked by how much their LO needs boob and presume theyre not producing enough milk because they were never told that this is what to expect!

Now that i know i have already decided that i wont bf past the colostrom stage if that with dc2. After feeling guilty about my decision ive done loads more research and have read that there is not much evidence behind the health benefits that are claimed.

Also my LO stopped needing feeds at night by 8 weeks and i know that this would never have happened if i breastfed. Mayve if there was more evidence to back up claims but there is not.

[MsElisaDay]

Littleginger, just to say it is perfectly possible to express enough milk to keep up with a baby's demands. It's not easy, but it is do-able.
I did it for 10 weeks and would have kept going til 6 months if he hadn't miraculously begun latching on.

Like you, I was surprised by how hard breastfeeding was, and didn't think the NHS antenatal classes were adequate preparation.
If they'd been honest about how difficult it could be, and prepared us for some of the pitfalls that may lie ahead, then I may have been less disheartened when I struggled so much.
But instead, the message was just that, if it hurts "you're not doing it right" and to keep trying. I didn't know it was possible that a baby could refuse to latch altogether for not days, but weeks, on end.

I do, however, disagree with your point that there isn't much evidence behind the health benefits. The health benefits are proven, which is why I personally felt it important to ensure my DS got breastmilk even though I initially couldn't feed him from the "source."

[tiktok]

littelginger, I think you are right that it can be difficult to prepare for the reality of breastfeeding.

A diagram does not really do the job :) , because the most important 'learning' is done when the baby is actually there. Women in your situation where no one in the family or among their friends has breastfed are particularly 'green' and it's not their fault :(

The first week or weeks can be marked by the baby being on or close to the breast a lot. This isn't confined to bf babies (see many threads on here where women who are ff are also concerned about their babies' frequent feeding), but it's probably the case that bf babies do tend to need the breast more often in the early days. This can be especially the case if there's been a difficult birth (as yours was) because the baby wants the breast and the closeness of his mum for comfort as well as food and drink.

There's no doubt that there are health effects of bf/ff, and they are soundly researched, but the effects on any individual baby are usually
not predictable or visible. It makes sense that the milk of the species (humans) is the one 'for' the young of that species, anyway.

I don't think your experience is all that unusual - stopping bf early on is understandable because of the whole 'shell-shocked' feeling and the overwhelmingness of having the baby....and I don't know how women can be really prepared for that.

[littleginger]

MsElisaDay well youve done an amazing job! You must have some willpower and i envy you :) im glad your lo finally learned to latch on to give you a bit of a break from that pumping!

Tiktok i agree that there isnt a way to truly prepare however i do think that just being told the truth would help! It's like everyone knows that the arrival of a baby means sleepless nights and if you didn't before youre pregnant well youre told by someone daily until you give birth of course this doesnt prepare you fully for the experience of sleep deprivation but at least you arent shocked by it! At least you arent sat there thinking wtf why did no one mention this?

So i know the outcome for me may have been the same as i still may not have been mentally strong enough to get through the bad times but i do think it would have been easier. I was first time mum without much experience of babies who was expecting right in the middle of the festive period so i think my imagination did get a little carried away....i mean there wasnt even a halo on my little cherub's head but instead it was just boobboobboobboobboobboobboobboob- angrypurplehead - boobboobboobboobboobboobboobboob

Thank you for pointing out that a traumatic childbirth can worsen the situation. Ill bank that one along with the theory that inductions are meant to be more painful than natural. Might come in handy if i ever meet a gloater of easy birth / easy bfing!

In all honesty I dont know what id do if i was expecting a second child as it was only recently that i got over the whole 'never again!' phase

[MsElisaDay]

That's very kind, littleginger, thanks!

Although I'm not sure it was willpower so much as sheer bloody-mindedness. I just told myself I'd do it for another day, then another, then until he was a month old, and kept setting myself new goals.

I think that's the way a lot of people get through breastfeeding issues in general - aiming for small steps. Because if you stopped and contemplated what could be potentially months of pain and frustration then you'd be a lot more likely to give up...

[DuelingFanjo]

"I'd imagine its pretty hard to express colostrum"

I expressed from day one as my son was in special care. Wasn't that hard.
I realise the debate has moved on but just wanted people to know it's entirely possible.