ive been reading the 'contented little baby book' by gina ford and is it me but.........

[jayjaybaby]

hi im considering breast feeding and the woman seems to know whats she's on about but im confused about a few things
does she mean establish her routines whilst in the hospital
will i not succeed if i dont have an electric expressor
when she says tart with five minutes at each breast to start with does she mean literally just feed for ten minutes
any advice from you who have tried and suceeded or failed with method i'd love to hear from you as ireally want to everything i can to breast feed
thanks

I thought this subject was verboten atm

yes, I agree with you Caligula

I am careful not to do anything that anyone could object to, suzy....I am quoting from the book only, and not accusing GF of anything at all. I imagine the mods are watching with care. I am not aware that we cannot discuss the topic.....if this is the case, then someone from MN should let us know.

'Interesting that the people who breastfeed successfully and happily beyond the first weeks, and who say they have followed GF, really haven't' - says Tiktok.

Well I successfully breastfed for over a year with ds (9 months with dd who went straight onto cow's milk) and I really did follow her routines. In fact, I would never have managed to bf as long as I did without her book. I hate bfing - even after I got over the initial problems with ds, I never enjoyed it. If I had another child I would do it again for the health benefits but if considering my own desires would MUCH prefer to formula feed. Her routines worked really well to keep my supply going when I went back to work full-time (at 4months) and we never used formula. There are plenty of people who like to pay her out for her bfing advice, but the only people I personally know who have used her routines maintain that (a) they were sanity-saving; and (b) they helped them extending bfing by many months.

If the book suits you, go for it.

in my opinion :) her writing style is not the best. i also found that i got too hung up on the precision of timings at the start. and i wasn't aware enough of things like sleep cues, which i'm sure with a less malleable baby than mine could have been a big problem.

i'm blessed with a placid and contented baby (mainly!), and i really feel for anyone who isn't and who has been made to feel inadequate their baby "doesn't fit". it must be awful.

but, if i have another baby, i will use gf again as a framework for eating and sleeping timings. and i'm still really grateful to my friend who suggested the book to me in the first place :)

This thread makes me nervous.....

Me too......

Did you have a box of wake up toys and another for wind down toys, bloss?

Did you avoid cuddling your baby when you wanted to?

Did you avoid any playing with your baby 20 minutes before you wanted him to fall asleep?

Did you have the specified breakfast at the specified time?

Did you have a glass of water at 2 pm??

If you did and found it all essential, then that is fine, though I have to say you are not typical as people who say they have 'followed' GF, normally have not to quite this degree.

I have said before, on this thread too, that some families are clearly helped by some form of routined and structured day. I don't think this is right for 'all' babies - and it's the 'allness' of the regime that I am most uncomfortable with.

You're exaggerating a bit, tiktok.

Before reading her book, I didn't pay close enough attention to 'wind-down time' prior to naps. I did try and calm him down with cuddles etc just before putting him down, but I wasn't thinking 30 mins before that about trying to avoid stimulation. I honestly don't remember any recommendations for a 'box' of wind-up/down toys - are you sure that 'box' is specifically in it? But after I read the book, I was a lot more alert to the type of play I engaged in with him as naptime approached. And there were certain things I wouldn't play with him prior to a nap because they were too stimulating as he got tireder and less able to cope. Conversely, some of these were probably not interesting enough for him when he woke up, was fully fed and raring to go... So I think on balance, my answer is 'yes'. I did separate toys/activites in before/after naps along the guidelines she suggested. But I honestly don't remember her prescribing it in the bald terms you suggest.

On your next point, in our case, ds needed hugs and cuddles most of the day anyway - he hated being put down. So I think there was never really a moment when I was yearning for a cuddle but he wasn't! I got my fill of cuddles without any extra effort on my part! :)

I could go on but what's the point?

Tiktok, I really think you are very unfair in the way you characterise the book. You clearly hate the book and I respect your views and expertise, and acknowledge your oft- and forcefully expressed criticisms over the years. But I don't think you really understand how the book works - your latest post indicates that strongly to me. You certainly don't understand GF herself - I don't know her very well at all, but she's not at all the rigid martinet that you clearly envisage. And I don't remember ever really seeing you acknowledge the enormous good she has done for so many of us. Speaking entirely from personal experience now, and not from the many MN acquaintances that I've made, I have in person ONLY seen her routines work miracles, and transform unhappy babies and families; and I have ONLY seen her promote and extend bfing, especially for mothers who are working. I know there are other instances out there - and you have been exposed to these more than I have - but my personal experience through myself and friends and family has been 100% positive. I think you under-acknowledge the other side.

Bloss, you are right - she doesn't talk about a 'box'. She talks about 'dividing' toys (page 106, New CLBB). I suppose a 'bag' or a 'shelf' would do the same job.

Everything else is as I quoted it, in the identical terms.

I could pick out other things, too (no eye-contact or talking during wind-down time) and I think you'll find that hugging and cuddling 'most of the day' would not fit.

I have no idea what GF is like personally, though she has made daft personal comments about NCT people in print (apparently we are the 'hairy-legged brigade' - maybe that's just a silly joke, of course). I am only going on what she has written.....and I am quite sure the book has indeed helped a lot of families. I have never said it didn't! It's the fact that it claims to be right for 'all' babies and parents that is, to me, its biggest drawback.

You are right that someone in my position sees these drawbacks at first hand, hearing from mothers in utter despair because the book is not working for them, and they think their babies, or they, are doing something terribly wrong.

This is a direct result of the way the book is written and marketed.

And I am still interested in whether you drank a large glass of water while the baby was feeding from the second side during the 2 pm feed (offered for 10-15 minutes after 25-25 minutes on the first breast if the baby is still hungry). Page 128, New CLBB.

:)

Or maybe you drank the glass of water before, or after.....

Tiktok, if I thought you were honestly interested, I'd answer it - I really would! But you really seem determined to take the mick... which is fine, but it's not worth my staying up for it. (I'm off to bed now -it's 11pm here. Goodnight! :) )

I suppose I am not so much taking the mick as underlining some of the points I have noted from the book in a lighthearted way....don't mean to offend, and actually, I am genuinely interested in how literally people take the instructions.

Now I will never know ....

Oh please answer - I really want to know if anyone has ever done as the books says and followed it all to the letter. I can't imagine it, but surely there must be some people out there who have?

I quite agree with Bloss about Tiktok's attitude to GF.

Haven't read whole thread, (am lazy, also bf) but personally I think

\link{http://www.askdrsears.com/html/2/T020100.asp\dr sears} (or really his wife, Martha) is fantastic on just reading up on breastfeeding, but also has loads of info. I quite liked Elizabeth Pantely's books too if you want to think about some sort of structure (I am just now thinking about structure, my youngest is 10 months...)

If you want to get your head round it, either the local NCT or your health authority probably run some sort of classes.

Agree with an early poster. IMO, and IME, demand feeding is necessary for a lot of women if you want to get bf properly established.

I think where ever you go for info on bf, you're likely to do better if the person has themselves breastfed. i don't know a single organisation (NCT ABM LLL etc) that will train a woman who has not bf as a bf counsellor. So if you choose a bf guru, I'd make sure they've bf a baby. If possible, make sure they've had a bit of a rough ride at some point too ;) .

But people should not be so hard on Gina Ford. I got some very useful information from the contented little baby book. I now know that the best way to dry white woollens is to roll them in a white towel.

ok, so GF's lawyers are on mn's case. But can someone explain to me what exactly is the consequence of dissing GF? So this thread might get pulled by mn if they are nervous about lawsuits - fine. GF writes a book, we have opinions, some agree, some don't - a person writes a book, this is what is expected. This is all "fair comment", a legitimate defence to defamation. Why should we voluntarily have to curtail our freedom of speech. THIS is the truly scary thing for me. Far more than GF's routines.

I have to agree with Filyjonk. Take advice from someone who has been there. I was about to train as an ABM counsellor (but changed my mind and went to Uni, ABM can come after baby 4) preceidely because I'd BF despite loads of problems. I KNOW it can be hard.

I did do my Unicef first though, and 4 hourly feeds just aren't enough to get bf established. And you can't even, at this stage, factor in the what ifs.... ds 2 was too shattered after a long labour to do anything but sleep for the first 48 hours, and then he needed feeding loads to make up for it. DS1 was born at a low birth weight, weak and with low blood sugar- he didn't have the energy to take more than a small amount per feed.

Jayjaybaby,

I found GF Book a godsend with my DS. Lets face it no-one gives you a handbook when you leave hopsital.

I left hosp and 4 days later DS suffered severe dehydration cos my milk didn't come it to day 5 and he was sucking fresh air, so I had to express and give bottle to stop DS's dehydration. I used a Avent manual pump thingy which for me was more effective than a machine pump.

Plus DH used to pee'd himself laughing as I used to sit in front of the TV with my boob out pumping away like a good'n ;)

In regards to GF, I just took the routines and bits that worked for me. DS loves his routine and has really thrived on it. If I didn't have such a routine to start with I donlt think DS would have been sleeping 7 hours during the night by week 3.

Each to their own but GF worked for me and I will use the routines again for next baby due in October.

Goodluck :)

Don't really think you have a point, Peachyclair or blueshoes. For instance, very few people who breastfeed have problems of MASSIVE oversupply (something I suffered - I used to have to express off 2-3 ounces before I could even begin the feed... even the lactation consultants said I was in an unusual range). And I am clearly in a tiny majority of people who actually hate bfing even when they did it both long-term and 'successfully'. So if someone comes along who never had any serious problems with bfing and absolutely loved it how is their experience relative to me and what I'm doing? In fact, some of the most unhelpful comments/advice I ever had was from people who had bfed themselves but had had a different experience from mine. Chloe Fisher, who was someone I consulted with my bfing problems and is world-reknowned bfing expert, has never had children, yet her job is f-t lactation consultant. It's like saying you can never have a male obstetrician, or a childcare worker who hasn't had children. (There goes Michael Odent's career, too...) It's just silly.

You would have more of a point if you said 'bfing is a complex thing and you need specific bfing qualifications and experience, rather than just nannying, midwifery or maternity nurse experience'.

bloss, I agree with you. Implying that someone cannot support mothers if they have had no children themselves is just daft. Some very well-respected people in this field are childless.
In the same way, someone who has had children may be hopeless and have no insight into other people's experiences at all.

Any author, or authority, or supporter has an obligation to get beyond their own experience, anyway, whatever their experience is, and study the evidence and the research.

Thank you! :)

For me, this view has always been a strength of GF's. Because unlike any other parenting author I can think of (Sears, Pantley, Stoppard etc etc) she has actually been in the situation where SHE herself is 100% responsible, without support, for the baby 24 hours a day. And she has done this for (from memory) at least 300-400 babies... I don't blame her for thinking her techniques always work, when they have always worked for her for that many babies. She has more experience of newborns than any mother has. And she has more relevant experience of newborns than paediatricians and other professionals. I really think a maternity nurse is the ideal person to advise on the kinds of things she's advising on. I appreciate that she may have less experience than some on breastfeeding, specifically, but she has the kind of experience that I think is relevant to the main emphasis of her book - which is, after all, not 'how to make breastfeeding work', but 'how to have a healthy, contented baby'.

But bloss, someone who has cared for 300 babies can't have cared for any of them for very long!! Maternity nurses typically care for babies up to about six weeks (often a good deal less) - this is simply not long enough to see the long-term results of any regime.

I am absolutely fine about someone with this experience sharing hints about laundry and the best sort of mattress and giving tips about how to hold a new baby safely, and bath them, and helping the toddler get used to the new arrival - after 300 babies you'd pick up a lot of practical stuff like this and certainly more than any paediatrician :)

But as for the other stuff, specifically breastfeeding physiology, there is a ton of research done (cumulatively) on many thousands of babies that no one could possibly hope to compete with in their own personal experience. None of the books give any hint that this has been anything other than skimmed over, and what little has been read has been comprehensively misunderstood (just read what the books say about foremilk and hindmilk, for example).

I think what I am saying is that if you want to write something that purports to fit the lives of 'all' babies - and to repeat, that's where the real weakness of the books lie, in this persistent claim that 'one size fits all' - you have an obligation to make sure your advice is soundly evidence-based. Even then, you have to be quite brave to claim the advice is suitable for everyone....

If an author doesn't want to do the reading and the research, then don't you think it's best for them to say nothing at all about the stuff they don't understand, and instead stick to practical and useful tips about woollies and decorating the nursery?

Eh? I've breast fed two babies but I would never claim to be an expert or to be in any position to offer 'better' advice than someone who has cared for so many babies in so many different situations. Madness.

tiktok - how about a deal?

if we agree with you that:

• gf might not work for all babies
• the book has to be read in the spirit that she intended it (i think) rather than in the very strict way it was actually written

will you agree that:

• routines can be useful for some families
• gf can be very helpful for establishing a routine

how about it? let's all be friends :)