support thread for FFing or mixed feeding newborns or young babies?

[Shelduck]

I have a ten-day old baby, and i'm looking at having to giving up EBFing and maybe BFing altogether, although still expressing away like mad. Having assumed that BFing would work out, i'm a little unprepared for FFing (and Bottlefeeding expressed milk), and i'm finding the routine a little daunting, quite aside from all the emotional struggle this has involved. I thought i found a support thread but i've lost it now. Can anyone help point me in the direction of some help?!

Thanks Panda, am going to persevere for as long as I can. I love feeding him, have no pain or anything, its just so stressful and frustrating when I know he isn't getting enough.

I think his latch is pretty good but am going to get it checked next week at the breastfeeding group, it looks ok to me, presumably it would hurt also if it was wrong?

Tiktok its v scary about the salmonella/contaminants. I've been very careful about following the guidelines. I have sometimes quick-cooled a couple of bottles of formula to use for overnight topups. Perhaps I shouldn't do this and should stick with the cartons if I need to be quick?

Ladies really interested by this thread as i was in your place a few months ago. My ds lost 12% by day 5 we ended up back in hospital for 2 days doing 3hrly feeds, expressed milk, pumping and then ff, each feed took over an hour and it was tough (especially when we were quarantined due to another person on ward with suspected noro and we had no support from any1). His latch was beautiful but my supply just was just not there, i saw a bf counsellor, fed on demand, took fenugreek ....everything i could but at the end of the day i had no breast changes, they didnt grow, hurt, get hot, felt any different etc. from day 5 he was on top up after every feed and he soon started getting frustrated at the breast and gradually chose the ease of the bottle to me. I kept trying to express by hand and with a medela swing pump and still never managed to express even half an oz. I got to the stage where i was only putting us both through the stress of it so i could say at 8 week post natal check i could say i was still bfing.......so i gave myself permission to stop at 8 wks. Ds has never looked back hes 6.5 months, on 3 meals a day and is 22lbs (he was born on 91st centile so always been big) im still questioning what i could have done differently etc but ultimately i know i tried.

You all sound like you are doing wonderful jobs and sometimes it doesnt work so dont beat yourselves up too much if you do have to make the decision to switch to full ff.

Oh and btw Follow the instructions on making up feeds you'll be fine, i make mine with cooled boiled water -so still warm to kill the bacteria, store in fridge for up to 24 hours and discard feeds within 2 hours if they are started.

Wow figgygal, sounds stressful, its amazing you kept going through all that! Good to hear from someone that has come out the other side!

figgygal I have a friend who also didn't produce enough milk. She managed a small BF in the morning and last thing at night but had to use formula for all other feeds. Its such a shame that even the BFing counsellors say oh carry on your body will produce enough for baby when in some cases that simply isn't true.
Well done for trying for 8 weeks, it must have been really hard going.

And I will definitely be using hot hot hot water to make feeds up from now, not worth risking babies health to save a few minutes.

Hi. Great to find this thread. You all sound amazing.

A huge apology in advance for the length of this post, but it has been really good to write it down. I have a five week old.

I am struggling with breast feeding - I really, really want it to work. I think we started ok, although LO had a tongue tie that I only managed to get cut on day 11 (after a fight but that is a different story), plus he has had precautionary antibiotics from birth with a syringe due to slight dilation of the kidneys on pregnancy ultrasound. Not sure how much these issues will have influenced BF.

I started EBF and really thought everything was fine, but he just did not put weight back on, having dropped from 3,480 to 3,150 g (9.5%). He didn't get back past his birth weight until four weeks and had several days where he was at the breast for over seven hours total (whilst also expressing 4 times a day on average, although not getting much, but topping him up with this nonetheless - around 100 ml/ 3 oz from all pumping). He would spend forever at the breast, come off and then start crying because he was hungry :(.

So we started topping up with formula - I was practically in tears buying it in the shop, feeling incredibly ashamed and a complete failure (this is in no way any reflection on anyone else's stories and choices, it is just how I felt). Also several days where feeding him with formula would leave me in tears. I also felt really guilty about not picking up on any problems earlier - I really thought it was going ok as he had the right number of dirty/wet nappies.

I have seen a couple of lactation consultants and we think the problem might be a mix of the baby not sucking in depth (ie in a way that pulls milk down from the alveoli) and just taking milk that is already in the breast if you see what I mean) and it being hard to draw down my milk - both of which make the other worse. The LC also noticed that he was folding his top lip in (and yes, I feel guilty about not noticing this earlier even though I know that is illogical). In addition it is really difficult to get him to open up his mouth wide to take the breast.

I am trying everything to get my milk supply up (skin to skin, putting him to breast lots, breast compression, expressing, fenugreek, reflexology, acupuncture, drinking loads of water and domperidon), whilst also giving him breast, EBM, then finally formula (around 350 ml / 12 oz of bottle feed a day using a Medela calma teat that sort of needs the same sucking action as the breast). It's tiring but I am hoping it will work - at least I feel I am doing something.

It's great to hear your stories of how FF has not just been a one-way road to stopping BF (unless that was your choice) and that some of you have gone back to EBF. I still fluctuate between being mildly optimistic and feeling very low.

Again, apologies for the length of the post. It really helped to write it. Any advice welcome.

fretfree I haven't really got any advice as such. But well done for keeping going despite all the problems you have had. Just remember that if you do top up with formula, its not the end of the world as he is getting all the goodness of breast milk too.

I too am topping up with formula. I can't seem to get my milk supply up enough to go back to exclusively BFing but I am trying not to worry too much as he is still getting breast fed at night so the health benefits are there.

Also your little one is only 5 weeks, it takes time for breast feeding to be established and for baby to really get to know what to do. Don't be disheartened, give it time and see how it goes. Hope it works itself out, keep us updated.

wow fretfree you wrote my story - plenty of nappies, weight loss, slow to regain BW, TT, baby not emptying breast properly, not opening his mouth, lack of milk via pumping, had to FF top ups (me cryingf too!!) - you are not alone!!!

will write more later but suffice to say we are now just ahead of you and are at 7 weeks & PFB has had no FF for about 2 weeks. There is hope :)

I worked hard jusr like you to beat the problem and now PFB is putting on weight reallly well.
my success so far i put down to Patience, persistence & support from my DH & my mum n dad as well as:

• BF every 2 hours or so during the day & not going more than4 hours at night without expressing or BF
• expressing as often as possible for 15-20 mins per breast (aim was 8x a day per breast but managed that once!! more like 4-6 times a day & now 2-3 times)
• hiring hospital grade double pump (Medela Symphony)
• getting TT cut (took 4 weeks tho)
• taking PFB to a cranial osteopath
• going to a NCT BF drop in cafe every week
• meeting up weekly with my nct group for support & exchanging regular texts/emails
• having a LC to visit us at home for moral support
• medela calma teats (but we also tried finger feeding, cup feeding & an at breast supplementer)
• co-sleeping frequently
• lots of skin to skin
• using a wrap sling out & about and at home
• domperidone (8x10mg tablets a day as 3 tablets did NOTHING - see Dr Jack Newman article below which i shared with my gp & discussed with our MW in order to get a prescription),

breastfeedingonline.com/Dom19abcombinedpdf.pdf

• also taking fenugreek & blessed thistle, more milk special capsules & pregnacare multivit
• drinking milkmaid tea,
• using relaxing music for me & for Baby (incl hpnobirthing bf cd)
• getting treatment for thrush (me - nipples; PFB - bottom)
• reading:

- The Breastfeeding Mother's Guide to Making More Milk : Foreword by Martha Sears, RN (Breastfeeding Mothers Guide) [Kindle Edition] - The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding [Kindle Edition]

phew - hard work but so worth it. (weeks 2-5 were hell, so anyone reading this at that point & thinking they cannot cope just remember it does not go on forever. my highlight was being told to get him to A&E asap even though we had just realised the problem was that I had very little milk. the paediatrician we saw privately instead was wonderful & v supportive and confirmed PFB had no problems extra calories would not rectify)

PM me if you want any more moral support but a few links below to stuff i used in case it is of use to you.

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001VGVR2C

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000008GCD

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003HJLIBQ

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0029WXZG8

www.nctshop.co.uk/Infant-Feeding-Cup-3-Cups-with-lids/productinfo/2004/

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000RBE6Q6

shelduck How are things going for you and lil one now?

SirCharles Wow that is dedication. I feel so lucky that things are finally working for me and baby because I don't think I would have coped in your position. Am being really thick here, but what is this tongue tie everyone keeps mentioning? And how do you know if your baby has it?

Wow - thanks panda and sircharles

Sircharles - how encouraging to hear your story. I will try upping the domperidon dose (had already increased to 3 - although that is three times a day, so 9 total). Already doing most of the other stuff but could express more, so will try that. I am currently reading the womanly art book!

One of the challenges is knowing when to pump, as LO never finishes a breast feed satisfied and even when I top up with EBM or FF he often wants to go back on fairly quickly - and uncannily has a habit of waiting until I am 2-3 minutes into a pump before starting to eat him arm and make mewling noises, leaving me with the dilemma of continuing or stopping (especially as I know how important it is to pump if he is not emptying the breast). How did you time it?

I'm going to try a bath with him later today and see if he can put himself on alone, a bit like the stories re laid back breastfeeding in the womanly art book.

I have a storgen wrap - and two masters degrees that have not prepared me for the complexities of putting it on.... Not had much success so far, but spend most of the time skin to skin with him anyhow (and co sleep).

I've only got sporadic Internet access at the mo but will pm you when better connected. Thanks

Panda- tongue tie is when the frenulum (the flap of skin that connects the tongue to the base of the mouth) is overly developed (eg goes all the way to the tip of the tongue) so stops normal use of the tongue. It is very important to get it sorted, as it is painless to snip when v young (later requires gen anaesthetic) and it can impact speech, eating solids, kissing etc when older.

Hi fret free. Bf in the bath is lovely. We have done that a few times. Nice n warm & snuggly. Enjoy! My lo had problems latching himself on in those lying down positions but is slowly getting there - don't worry of yours finds it difficult too.

As for pumping - I do it right after a feed with a double pump. If nothing comes out after 5 mins I stop and try again in 20 mins. I have found using a hot water bottle/lavender wheat bag on my breasts before & during expressing really helps get more too - although the let down can take a while.
I pump after the first morning feed (ie around 5 or 6 am) and after the last evening feed - ie around 1am. Other pumps often get missed in the daytime as my lO stocks up so time is short.

Why do you think your Lo is not satisfied after a feed? I have been told the rooting signs can also take place after a feed when lo is just wanting comfort rather than food - do I have lactation consultant or NCT bf cafe you can go to for support? Might be worth it.
Btw have you tried switch feeding? See the Kelly mom website for details but I find my LO falls asleep before getting full on one breast but If I switch him a couple of times during a feed he stays awake and drinks more in the feed? (I assume you know the difference betw active drinking with swallowing rather just sucking ? But check kelly mom and the jack Newman websites for info oR even Better consult a LC or nCt bf counsellor)
Good luck

Hello and how is everyone? Hope you and your little ones are doing well. Just to update after a week of only expressing once a day or not at all, I decided to give BFing another go and two weeks later my milk supply is great and I am only giving one bottle of formula a day at bedtime.

Hoping this doesn't come across as me being smug, this isn't my intention. I just want to let everyone know that it is possible to pull it back from not breast feeding to almost exclusively breast feeding. I think the fact he is a little older 19+ weeks and more aware of how to latch on helps, don't think it has much to do with me to be fair lol.

Hi everyone. Good to catch up with you all, and to hear such determination!

panda that's fantastic! I very much take my hat off to you!

Me and LO are doing really well, thank you for asking. I actually ended up giving up expressing, because i just found it so hard to make time for. Wasn't a decision as such - i just gradually did less and less of it, until it just didn't feel like the be all and end all anymore, and i wanted to get on actually enjoying being a mummy. I was struggling a lot with baby blues, and still exhausted from anaemia, so it was important to me to take some pressure off where i could. So i'm now exclusively ffing, and have made my peace with that. (i've two friends from antenatal class, and we've all ended up ffing, despite intending to bf, so don't feel alone.) And DS is absolutely thriving, thank goodness. 5 weeks old, growing before my very eyes, and bright as a button. Also getting used to the bottlefeeding routine, and it's feeling less of a chore now.

How is everyone else doing?

Hello everyone. I've been watching this thread with interest. I just wanted to say that the latest post made me smile. I too fully intended to bf, had a lot of issues (some due to my expectations) and started adding ff and then eventually expressing instead of bf. I gradually gave up expressing and DS is now totally ff. It has taken me a while to make my peace with the decisions I've made but I am now totally enjoying life with my baby and for me that's the most important thing.

Well done to those of you persevering.

Wishing everyone happy times with their precious babies

Hi shelduck and bumper1 Ah sorry BFing didn't work out for you but really glad you are both ok with it.

My DS1 was Bfed for 8 weeks but then I found out he was severely lactose intolerant and he went onto a soya formula. I ended up getting post natal depression. (There were other issues but the BFing was a big issue for me at the time.) So am glad to know you are both happy and baby is happy too. That's the important thing.

My DS1 grew out of his intolerance at around 2 year old and you would never know to look at him that he ever had a problem. He is exceptionally bright and tall for his age so I don't think (soya) formula did him any harm at all. Silly how we all get hung up over feeding, when its such a small part of a child's life.

Shelduck, Bumper1, I am gearing myself towards this. I have stopped expressing 5x a day as it began to seriously impact on my mental wellbeing by making me obsessed with DS's feeding habits and how much he was having each day, comparing the amounts with all sorts of charts, making me extremely anxious (worrying that DS wasn't eating enough, that I didn't know how to feed my own child, etc. - clearly he has as he is putting on weight fine, is bright, alert, smiling bucket loads, etc.). So much so that I have been seeing my HV for the past two weeks to talk through these issues and am seeing my GP on Friday. I think everything just collected together inside of me, from the very first days in the hospital (where I couldn't BF as I didn't have any milk for the first few days and hated feeding DS via the cup as he would be coughing, choking and spluttering everywhere) to now.

I have now reduced expressing to 3, max. 4x a day, with a view to gradually wind it down altogether. DS will be 14 weeks on Sunday. I think I have reached the end of the expressing road. It's either that or go mad. I prefer the former.

Hi balkan Sorry that you've been having such a hard time of it. i can certainly identify with a lot of what you've said, and like you, i decided i'd rather ff and give up expressing than risk my mental health and my relationship with LO. I would never advise you what feeding route to take, and i don't think that feeding is an unimportant issue, but i do think its importance is overplayed (or rather the desirability of breastfeeding, given that we're fortunate enough to live in a country with reliably clean water) and certainly not an issue its worth going mad over. You clearly love your DS, and have gone to great efforts to do what you think is best, even if it hasn't worked out the way you wanted. so please don't beat yourself up about this, whatever you choose to do. X

Shelduck, you are right. :) At the end of the day we are fortunate enough to have an alternative. Even though there was never a doubt in my mind while I was pregnant and the early stages of DS's life that I wouldn't BF. I bought masses of BF vests, tops, bras, bought only a few bottles for the hell of it (thinking, pah, won't really need them)... In the end I was fanatically expressing 6x a day (for about 2 months) when it became more and more obvious that BF wasn't going to work out for both of us. Little by little it took its toll on me - my HV thinks that my current anxiety stems from those early feeding days and the punishing expressing schedule I had prescribed myself.

I would rather spend the time staring at his gummy smiley face and strolling in the park with him than frantically looking at the clock and wheeling the pump out yet again.

To all you ladies in a similar situation I have nothing but respect.

balkanscot your lil one has had breast milk for 14 weeks. That is fantastic, well done you. Like shelduck says Its not worth going mad over. Whatever you decide, be happy knowing you did your best.

balkanscot would you not want to give actual breast feeding another go or is there a problem with lil one latching on?

Just asking as I was expressing all the time but have now gone back to breast feeding. My DS is a lot better at latching on etc now he is a bit older (20 weeks tomo)

To be honest, Panda, I don't think I am mentally stable enough at the moment to go put ourselves through the whole process yet again. He is also quite heavy for me to hold in a suitable BF position, plus what little actual BF I managed to get done, it was always via nipple shields. Which I feel you always have to press with your fingertips so they don't come off (therefore you only have 1 hand available to hold DC). Well done for re-establishing BF with your DS, though. :)

balkanscot (((hugs))) I don't want to tell you what to do but seriously if you are feeling that crap about BFing and expressing then just give it up. It really isn't worth risking your mental health over. I suffer from depression, have done for years and if I thought for one minute that BFing was making me worse I would give up straight away. Baby needs a happy mummy, that is the most important thing.

As I mentioned in a earlier post DS1 had to have soya formula but he has turned out fine. Consider this- Walk into a classroom of 4 and 5 year olds and see if you can tell who was formula fed and who was breast fed just by looking at them. Even looking at test results, there is no way of telling.

The only reason I wanted to breast feed this lil one so much was because I couldn't with DS1. Even now I have days where I give him more formula than breast feeds, today being one of them. I still find it really demanding BFing and formula is safe and convienient.

Hi haven't read whole thread yet (intend to!) but I am fully FF my 4-week-old DS. He had breastmilk for the first 10 days but due to various issues moved onto formula.

I'm wondering how long your babies go between feeds at this age? I'd thought it was 3-4 hours for FF babies by 4 weeks. He is a 2.5-3 hourly feeder, always has been. He gradually upped his ounces and was taking 4 every 3 hours, but over the last 2 days he has been "snacking", waking every 2-2.5 hours and acting positively starving, but only taking 2-2.5 oz at each feed, then falling extremely asleep and refuses to suck or swallow anymore, so it perpetuates the cycle as he hasn't had a full feed and wakes up earlier for the next one.

I'm a single mother and bloody exhausted from this, he has to spend 30 mins upright each time he eats due to reflux so I'm getting a max of about 1-1.5 hrs between start of each feed (he takes at least 30 mins to eat and fully get wind out).

Sorry for mammoth post, but any ideas on getting him to stretch out his feeds longer and take more like he used to?? I really don't want to let him scream for an hour as a relative suggested as if he did that, he would then be too exhausted to feed properly. I also dont want to put cereal in his bottle as a friend suggested!

Hi balkan. I think panda's said it very well, so i'm hoping you feel reassured that you're making the right decision in giving up the expressing. Be kind to yourself - go and enjoy one of those gummy smiles, and don't give it another thought. (As someone else who's had issues with anxiety, i just tell myself that there will be plenty of other opportunities to beat myself up about whether i'm being a good mother in the future! ) And, as my lactation consultant said when i was feeling like a failure, maybe you'll be the best ever at weaning, while everyone else is finding it a nightmare!

Hi fishpond, and welcome! I think i could have written much of your post! DS is now 5 and a half weeks. I would say he has usually been going 3 hours between feeds, but often 2 or 4 - occasionally 5, and he usually takes 3 to 5 ounces (90-150mls). But that said, he's been quite grizzly the last couple of days, and is drinking less but more often, although thankfully not at night. Maybe our LOs both have the same bug?! Or maybe it's because it's so warm at the moment, and they're feeling thirsty?

I'm trying not to look for patterns or explanations too much at this stage, because as soon as you think you've sussed out LO's feeding habits, it will suddenly change! I make up bottles of 180ml (about 6 ounces) because he was draining 150ml bottles quite happily. But i'm wondering if he was going through a growth spurt, because he now rarely drinks more than 120ml, so i'm throwing loads of formula away. So there's a certain amount of shoulder-shrugging in my part. Ho hum!

I would say you should definitely just keep feeding on demand for now. I know it's a massive pain for you , especially if he's feeding little and often at night too, but all the advice i've received is to keep demand feeding at this age. I do have a book that suggests making LO wait a little, but for 5 or 10 mins, rather than an hour!

Not sure if i've helped at all there, but hope things settle for you!

Hi, I can relate to so many of the emotions discussed here. I ebf for 3 weeks with a baby that was never happy, added formulae top ups and mixed fed for 5 weeks, then admitted the hell of expressing, breast feeding a baby that after time screamed and refused to latch on because he wanted a faster bottle I gave up and ff. The damage to my mental health and bond with my baby wasn't worth it.

Fishpond- my DS was like this with small very frequent feeds. The thing that worked best was swapping to a faster teat-I did this at 8 weeks (went to 3 month + teats, but could have used variflo). It made a lot of difference-because he was so hungry he struggled to get enough milk in without being shattered. He also took less air in with a faster teat so less wind. My DS is 5 months now and still has 7-8 feeds a day so I guess he is just a big eater but it's much more manageable now.

I still feel sad and a failure that I couldn't breast feed-but I know I couldn't have tried harder and that formula is the best for me and my baby.

zzzzmarchhare you did 3 whole weeks, that is great. 21 days of struggling with something that is new and bloody hard work is not to be sniffed at.

And fishpond its normal. They go through growth spurts and feed really frequently and only little feeds. It nearly drove me potty when my lil one did that. It does get better. Its a good idea to try a faster teat though. You will know if it suits baby as if it is too fast he will cough and splutter and milk will be everywhere.
My lil one uses stage 2 teats 3 month plus, he can't handle the 6 month plus ones yet.

What have they given for reflux? My lil one has gaviscon just in the bottles I give him, (too much faff when I am breast feeding as you have to express and mix it and syringe it into his mouth cos it doesn't taste nice) It works wonders for him but then he isn't too bad with it. Has anyone recommended stay down milk?