Newbie questions

[ladyfoucault]

Hello. I am holding my ten day old baby in my arms almost constantly and am too tired to search the forum for relevant answers. Apologies. I am pretty clueless about breastfeeding and what to do with babies - I thought it would come natural ... what a mistake. I am feeling pretty down at the moment - have been since coming home, after a difficult time in hospital. What I crave is a sort of schedule, I know it is not possible to have a tight schedule with babies so young but to be honest, in order for me to feel better I will try anything, even formula.
When we got home, I spent the first few nights with baby in the living room. This was so my partner, who is on paternity leave, would sleep well and be able to take baby off me the next day. Baby was breastfeeding constantly from evening onwards until about 2 am, when he fell asleep and I could put him in his crib. He slept a few hours (3 I think). This got me so down, thinking that this is how my nights would be, and what a life change that is etc, I couldn't sleep whilst baby was sleeping. Next day was the same, baby fed constantly in the evening, fell asleep in the early morning hours, left me knackered and unable to sleep. I have now learned that what baby is doing is probably clusterfeeding and quite normal. My question is: If clusterfeeding, is it possible to take baby to bed when I want it, or will he not sleep until he is done? And that can be until the wee morning hours?
A lady from my NCT class has a slightly older baby (7 weeks) who is breastfed. She takes him to bed at 7 pm, where he stays. How can I achieve this? Is my baby too young for this, or is it a question of how they feed?
I have kept a little diary of the last two days, and found that there was a long stretch between his afternoon sleep and the time he went to bed at night. Is it a question of him being overtired, so that I should not leave too long between sleeps, in order for him to go to bed earlier, or is there no point in that?
My baby feeds in little bits during the day, since 5 am today he has had nine feeds each lasting from 15 mins to 30 mins, with him falling asleep after feed and having a little nap. Is that normal, or excessive?
Regarding my partner taking the baby out, baby is never really off my breast so I can't have a break in the afternoon. Is that normal?
Also, I would like to go out, but if he wants feeding every half an hour, or whenever he wakes up, how can I can I go out?
When baby eventually goes to sleep, I find that changing him wakes him up and makes him alert and wanting to eat again. Is it okay to put him in his crib unchanged?
The last two nights, baby slept with us in the bedroom as a trial. He slept a few hours, woke up because he was wet, needed ten minutes breastfeeding, and then went back to sleep. I swaddled him and gave him a dummy which he took, and spat out after a while but he sucked on it for a while and it helped him to go to sleep. Woke after one hour again with a wet nappy. From then, he started his feeding / sleeping routine which he is still doing currently. My partner is going back to work again, and I feel terrible if he has interrupted sleeps - how do other dads do it? Do most fathers sleep in the same room?

Lots of questions. I hope people are able to give me some advice and kind words - I would be so grateful. Many thanks. x

Hope things are ok for you, there is some really good advice here, i think most importantly you need to know that what you are experiencing is really normal for a small baby, but if you are worried to contact either medical professional, hv or doctor or if feeding related a bf support group, we had a nct baby talk group locally where a bf couns came every week, and she was a great help, very informative and helpful (and encouraging). I am so glad, i carried on with bf, as so much easier than sterilising, making up, storing and wrming botles of formula, the real shock came for me when we started weaning ds, who is now 9 months, as suddenly i had to start taking all sorts with me that i had never had to worry about for feeding him!
These first few weeks felt a bit hazy for me, once you are at 6 weeks you will feel like you are a pro, and have been doing this for years! I would thoroughly recommend getting out and about, but try to have dp or your mum, friend or similar with you first few times, as a spare pair of hands is great, if not possible, like others suggest, try just a walk down the road, and be really pleased if you make it out the door. I started going to baby group around 6 weeks and felt i had really accomplished something. I now have a great group of friends who i have met who have babies of a similar age and its food to get together compare notes about sleepless nights and lack of enthusiasm from husbands etc!

Congratulations on your LO. It's the most truely exhausting time at the moment so wishing you well. How long are you feeding LO for each time? I found that with DS was first born I hadn't been feeding him for long enough hence he would wake up within ten minutes because he was still hungry. When LO is first born, should be feeding for around 40 mins and you need to try and keep LO awake to do it otherwise you'll just get woken up again for more food. 3 Hour intervals do work. We followed the Babywhisper advice and LO settled into a routine. We did the dreamfeed (where you feed them while they're asleep by bottle in the dark) and that got us 5-6 hours at night. Just go with the flow. Also found that if you send hubby out with baby and a bottle of expressed milk to the park for an hour or two, you'll get some well deserved rest. Unplug the phone and put sign on front door saying do not disturb!
Good luck.

crispy, glad what you did worked for you - but as a general thing, there should be no rules with a tiny baby, many of whom really cannot sustain a 40 min feed without needing to drop off to sleep, and it's not helpful to tell a mother she needs to keep the baby awake. This can be very distressing for some babies....it's a lot easier for many to go with the baby's flow as timing and scheduling and artificially prolonging feeds can be harder work.

Agree with you about the phone and the do not disturb sign :)

Congratulations on your new baby.
Everyone is giving you great advice here. My tuppence worth is: try not to think too much about this situation and imagining it going on and on. It won't. Things will change, and when they do, things can suddenly happen very, very quickly. But in the meantime, just hang on and don't try to imagine how you will manage to live like this in the medium or long term, because you won't have to. Honestly. Promise.

If your baby won't be put down, maybe try a sling or a mei tai, so you can potter around and at least make coffee. You may not be "that sort of mother" for ever, but with a tiny baby the weight is negligable and it might be the only way that you can make toast or sort the post. (But don't sort the post if you don't want to! I just mean if that is the sort of thing that might make you feel more sane.) the baby can feed in there too if you like.

If anyone offers you help, take it. Prepare a holding response for when your instinct is to say "oh no we're fine" or "you can't take the baby because of breastfeeding". Say something like, "how kind, let me think" and then give yourself a moment to work out what to ask them to do, something that would really help you and make you feel better: put the washing away, put some washing on, change your bed, empty the dishwasher, rock the baby while you do an online shop, or have a nap, or a bath.... whatever.

Feed lying down in bed if you can. With a book if you like reading.

Your partner cannot be protected from disrupted sleep.

Good luck. It all changes so, so fast. Don't forget to smell that little head as much as you can.

Wow, so much good advice and so many kind words. Thank you! My little boy is lying on my lap this minute, after having fed / fallen asleep / fed / fallen asleep for the last 1 1/2 hours. We had an appointment this morning, which was pretty stressful. I breastfed him from 7am to 8.45 this morning to ensure he is full for his 9.30 appointment but on the way there and during the appointment he was crying lots. I only briefly checked the Baby Whisperer last night, and it did say some of his cues meant that he wanted to suck, not necessarily eat - I therefore put my finger in his mouth in the car and he quite happily sucked for ages. We have a dummy at home which is used at night when he goes to bed but there is conflicting information about the use of dummies in newborns, so was trying to limit the use by not taking it with us. But I can see it is a life saver when you can't get the boobs out, for example in the car. I understand that the dummy is no alternative to the boob, and if I was at home I would rather give him the breast even if he only wants to suck.

In regards to the post about the sleep in the run-up to the cluster-feeding, causing the baby to be overtired if gaps are left too long, this is something I thought about too. On Saturday, he had his last sleep from 1.30 pm to 4pm (I know: pretty good! But he wouldn't go to bed and I didn't dare to co-sleep!) and then started his cluster-feeding marathon which went until 11pm. On Sunday, his last longish sleep before the demand-feeding started was at 1.45 pm to 3.15pm. The rest of the afternoon / evening he appared tired at times, wanting to fall asleep on the boob but fighting it. But how can I make him have another long stretch of sleep before he starts cluster-feeding, I don't know. Keep him more awake in the morning?

I have to admit that last night, after speaking to a friend on the phone, we gave the baby some top-up formula at 10pm as he made no attempts to sleep after six hours of cluster-feeding. I couldn't stay awake. He slept longer than he would have had he been just breastfed, which was a surprise. When he woke I tried the side-lying feed in bed - not sure he latched on correctly but still he sucked happily and fell asleep again - we co-slept for an hour or so which was really nice.

I think I feel a bit more positive now. At times I still think, will I cope, but I think the experience with the formula has helped. My current plan is to carry on with breastfeeding (and possibly formula at night) until week 4 and then to see what happens.

Thanks for all your replies, you are all stars. x

Glad to hear you're doing better. Just a couple of thoughts regarding your new post:

• The problem with dummy in the early stages is possible nipple confusion but if he's bf well then you should be fine and there's no reason why you shouldn't use a dummy if it makes your life easier.
• mixed feeding at this early stage is not advisable because your supply needs to get established and because baby may prefer the bottle as less work and eventually not want to bf.
• giving up at 4 weeks means that you've done all the hard work and then you give up soon before it's all going to be easier.

Either way, glad to hear you're doing better!

My baby is 2 and a half weeks and these are the things that have made me be able to stay ever so slightly sane (am still knackered but that is part of the territory)

• expressing one bottle feed per day. This has allowed us to operate a split shift system in the evenings. I express at 9pm and go to bed. ( I also express in the morning as I can't get a whole bottle in one go) DP does the next feed about 11 ish and then he goes to bed. I do the 5am get ups and let him sleep in an extra couple of hours. This has allowed us to retain a sense of humour about the 1am and the 3am wake ups as we both get a stretch of uninterrupted sleep at some stage. I try to take an afternoon nap too, even if it's just lying down for a bit in a quiet room.

-forgetting anything about routines that I have read in any of the well known books. As someone else has pointed out, the baby has not read the book. Mine simply can't go three hours most of the time. We are getting a slight routine as I know he will have a good two hour nap around midday ish and generally he will be ready to go down about 8pm now. But that is as far as it goes and I just feed him when he is hungry.

I don't think you should worry excessively about your partner and his sleep. It isn't fair if you are doing all the sleepless nights. Ok he has work to go to, but you will be working hard all day too looking after a newborn. It has to be a team effort. Sleeping in a different room now and then after a particularly hard night is one thing, but you feeling you can't sleep in your own bed and being uncomfortable on the sofa is not good at all.

Have you looked into local breastfeeding support groups at all?

It's years since I did this and I don't normally answer these posts, but having had three children and four years since I last breastfed, I would say

• Try and relax. You think this will last for ever, but it won't. I honestly thought I would never get to sit down and eat my supper uninterupted again, but I do. Give it a few weeks ...

• Mine always cluster fed at night and I didn't find a way around that - it stimulates milk prod'n as you probably know.

• If he is feeding all the time, be careful he is not just getting the watery fore-milk and then getting hungry again too soon. Maybe your DH could push him around in a buggy (in my experience this always makes them sleep) so he goes a bit longer between feeds (while you nap). Then he will be hungry enough for the hind milk too.

• Only change soiled nappies at night unless they feel puffed out and heavy with urine. You should be able to peek down the back or smell through the nappy to find out.

• My DH needed to drive for work, so sometimes he slept in another room.

You sound like you are doing amazingly for 10 days in

Hi OP my baby is three weeks old and being fed on demand too. Have you considered getting a sling?

I have a Closer sling that is really easy to use & I managed to breast feed him today while I was walking around the shops! I had no idea you could do this until I today. I'm v excited as it means I can leave the house when I want/need to, rather than trying to plan outings around hourly feeds which was getting me nowhere. Might give you a bit more freedom

Oh yes, I agree if you give up now, you will have done the hard work. I honestly cannot tell you how easy breastfeeding was for me once it was established. No bottles, messing with measures, taking it with us in the car etc. Once you get going, it honestly is straight forward/not painful/relaxing etc. Make sure you are watching TV or reading a book so that you relax and let down.

Your baby sounds to be doing really normal things.
Just a little word of warning though. Milk supply is all based on supply and demand. The average newborn feeds 8-12 times a day, but often not in a regular pattern, with the evening clusters being really common. Your body will make milk based on what your baby demands (ie how much he sucks). He will have growth spurts now and again where he sucks all day to get your milk supply up a bit so that it grows as he does. If during these times you are giving him a dummy or formula milk the message never gets to your boobs that they need to up production, and thus slowly you find you havent got enough milk to satisfy him, you rely more on formula and get into a problem cycle. This is often what happens to mums who say their milk "dried up".

Its really tough going in the early days when things are full on, particularly if you didnt know just how full on it would be. A local bf support group may really really help and give you some tips on his position etc which might mean he will feed more efficiently and so not be feeding quite as frequently.

Lots of people find it helps to just do one day at a time, forget about routines and schedule etc as these very often dont really fit with a normal breastfeeding baby and can be the kiss of death to a good milk supply for the reasons above. Try not to think about the future, it can seem daunting if you think "oh my god this is what my life is like forever" because nothing is forever with babies.

a random suggestion, if you have the funds to do it, could you maybe buy or make a cosleep crib. You can buy something like the troll crib from john lewis for £160, or (IF YOUR A BIT MORE DIY SMART) get a cheap cOT which can have a side removed and pushed against you bed so baby is righ next to you, but not quite in your space. Babies often sttle better if right near you, mums often settle better if they arent right in their beds.

ps, youre doing a really good job, even when you feel like its all too much, remind yourself of this!

OP, go easy on yourself. You're adjusting to a massive transformation in your life, nothing can ever really prepare you for the shock of being a first time mum. I became a first time mum eight months ago and spent the first 3 months in a blaze of shock, happiness, sadness, generally feeling overwhelmed and constantly wondering whether this or that was normal, whether i was doing things the right way.

My son also cluster fed and was never a massive sleeper (still isn't :(). The first two months were spent constantly on the breast and at 5.30 pm sharp the witching hour would begin and could carry on to 2 am. Breastfeeding was painful and I was too wound up to sleep much. It really is all a bit of a blur. It WILL pass, at about the three month mark, things suddenly get better/easier somehow. Sod worrying yourself into a state about routines and eating enough and whatnot for AT LEAST first three months, they DO get the hang of things eventually. I knew plenty of people that claimed their children fell into a routine the first week or so, but mine was like yours and I began stressing about routines feeding, sleeping, etc. The truth is, babies come with their own little personalities and the best thing you can do is to take their lead and go with it.

You may be one of those mums (like me!) whose kids aren't the most easy going, laid back, whatever. Don't ever compare your kid/mothering skills to others, your kid is just fine, that's just "him" and I'm sure he's perfect.

Keep congratulating yourself on doing an amazing job, if you find a way of feeling relaxed (on zero sleep), your son will eventually do the same.
Demand as many foot rubs, baths, cups of tea, crap tv, etc... as possible and let you be you and your son be your son.

I fed on demand it was certainly relentless in the first few weeks.

The first two weeks are incredibly challenging, you are right in it now. The euphoria and relief of labour/delivery being over takes you so far but then exhaustion kicks in and can make you feel very down. I had a baby who would cluster feed until about 1am or 2am, then would crash for 3-4 hours but then it would all start again.

I'd recommend a 10pm ish bottle feed which your partner could give, either expressed milk or formula. You will benefit by getting your head down and catching a bit more sleep, hopefully.

I eased my DC's into a routine at around 5-6 weeks, I was waking at 7am and starting day with three hourly feeds more or less based on GF. From 7pm I switched back to feeding on demand. The feeds start to spread out as they grow.

One way to get out of the house is to go straight out after a good feed, the fresh air will do you good. Grab a sling and head outside.

Also I didn't change nappies at night either. Last change was 10-11pm. Also fed in low-light at night.

A dummy might help too if they are sucking for comfort.

That's great that you were able to feed lying down :) It really will help you to get some rest too. A 4 week goal is a good idea but don't be afraid to ask for help at any time- there are several national helplines and BF counsellors all over the country that will give you one-to-one help for free.

I agree that mixed feeding and a dummy introduced too early may cause problems- some babies are fine with it but others are not. Of course it is your decision but there seems to be some confusion about comfort sucking: it is not a bad thing, it is a very good thing that will help to establish your supply and help you to bond with your baby.

If you are not happy with the amount of time he is spending at the breast then I would talk to a BF counsellor or something that is knowledgeable about breastfeeding management.

Get your partner to sleep in the other room. It's better if one of you has a good night's sleep.

You must get out of the house every day. Just walk to the park and a cafe.It will do wonders for your mood!

Wow, 10 days is soo new. The very fact that you are coherent enough to post here shows how well you're doing! When my DD was 10 days old I just lay awake all night thinking the things that you have managed to describe so eloquently!

I sometimes thought 'what have we done?' and then felt horribly guilty. But when I look back it's understandable - I had a tiny baby who had to be woken every 90 minutes to feed,and the hospital had me convinced that I then needed to express, then top her up with formula from a sippy cup. 'twas a nightmare. Eventually rang a Bf counsellor in tears and she was my saviour. Just told me to feed my baby more to boost my supply (amongst other things), et voila.

Totally agree with all the advice to take it a week/month at a time. At day 10 my aim was just to make it to 14 days,then 6 weeks,then 8 etc. am now still bf at 24 weeks. Btw,we now do one bottle of formula a day (did wait until bf was established first) and it works brilliantly for us.

It does get easier, and you have done the hardest bit as everyone says. It can be a joy once it's established. But equally don't beat yourself up about formula if it means you and your OH can share the load a bit and helps you to get out and about. If you really want to continue though do try la leche or a bf counsellor. It really helped me.

Congratulations,sounds like you are doing a fab job!

YYY to all the advice here. And congrats on your DC and well done for getting through a difficult birth.

Also if you haven't yet then find your MN post-natal thread as there will be lots of other people in the identical boat.

Co-sleeping in particular has saved my sanity - and probably as a consequence the lives of both my DCs I was a bit worried about having them in my big soft bed when they were teeny tiny so I bought one of these which was a good compromise. DD is nearly 8mo and still spends a bit of most nights in a bed with either me or DH but has long since grown out of the baby bed thinger.

Keep at it, and when it's tough repeat to yourself the mantra:

It's just a phase
These things shall pass
It's just a phase
These things shall pass
It's just a phase
These things shall pass

It really annoys me that breastfeeding isn't painted as a bloody hard slog intially.

There is nothing like the bone tiredness of it in the first few weeks.

But, after that? Brilliant. No sterilising, no expensive formula. I'm a lazy mother, it's totally worth hanging in there!

You sound like you are doing really well. One feed at a time. And freeview - tape stuff on freeview for the late nights.

Don't change nappies after a feed because it wakes them up as you've found out. Midway through a feed is good. In my experience (four) wet nappies don't wake babies up.

Aim for six week's breast but supplement with a bottle for last feed or more if necessary. You can then re-assess whether you want to continue.

Taking baby to bed works well. I did it but can be DANGEROUS! Check out risks. Sleep when baby sleeps, always, until you feel better and recovered. Forget about house, etc...

After six weeks baby in hisher own room if possible.

Get husband to help with at least some night feeds. Weekend?

Books - don't ya just love em? Don't waste too much valuable (sleeping) time reading books (unless Foucault of course).

PS
All mine in cradle beside my bed for first six weeks.
You feel like we all did. Good advice to read postnatal pages here & you'll see that. If anybody says differently don't believe them.

Great thread this: my son is 2 weeks today and it's been very helpful to read up on the advice here.

We started off using The Baby Whisperer, and may still return to some aspects of it when our son is older, but since we've been feeding more frequently, on the advice of the Health Visitor, we've had a happier, more content and utterly adorable son.

Of course, he was utterly adorable before too!

All the best, LadyFoucault!

Wish I'd seen this when my first was that tiny.

I am adding stuff but really the best advice is on here already.

Main thing for me was suddenly accepting that bfing was my only job for a few weeks and to go with the flow. I'd lived in my pajamas. Once I realised rather than agonise about what was happening and how long it all would last, just accepted it and went with the flow.

After a few weeks it will all settle down. IMO forget dummies and bottles, I don't think they bring much advantage tbh. I did a formula bottle at night for a few weeks but just messed with my supply and made DD feed more. Just feed on demand, keep tv remote and phone handy too and lots of snacks.

The thing I used to do to get a break was put DD in the car, she would always drop off and as soon as she was asleep I would go to Starbucks Drive in, buy a nice milky drink and park the car up. i would either read or doze on the reclined drivers seat. Honestly it was a real break!

Good luck. Feels strange to say it but now, seeing it all in retrospect, I soooooooo miss those early cuddly milky days when the whole world revolved around the baby. Now I have a tantruming toddler and a 6 year old with serious attitude!

OP you're doing great and there's been loads of great advice on here. Feeling overwhelmed/don't know what you're doing/completely exhausted is all totally normal. My son is 4.5 months old and I can vividly remember those early days, but it is SOOOOO much better now.

Get lots of chocolate, nice drinks, lovely snacks (I practically lived on cheese, pate and chocolate digestives for about 6 weeks!) which are easy for you to grab and eat with one hand

Watch TV, DVD boxsets, films while feeding

Get your DH to help at night with changing dirty nappies, winding baby

Put little one in a gro-bag as soon as possible, you pick them out of crib in gro-bag, feed them in gro-bag and put them back still in gro-bag. They're brilliant

If co-sleeping doesn't work for you (it didn't for me) push a cot/crib up against your bed so your little one is really close to you

Try feeding in a laid back position, also called biological nurturing. It's a fantastic relaxed position and requires minimal arm cradling

Put little one in a sling in day, all they want to do is be close to you. A sling will save your arms. I have a kari-me and it's a lifesaver.

Put down the books. Your baby hasn't read them and no matter what you do or try you cannot 'make' a baby sleep if they don't want to. It is hard but you just need to go with the flow, feed lots, be kind to yourself and accept all help offered. You really are doing a great job

Hi there Lady, First of all congratulations on your new one - you probably want to hit anyone who says this but... these first days are so precious and they dont come around again...Youve already had great advice but I just wanted to chime in as reading your first post I really felt for you and it bought memories right back of my experience with my first. In the first weeks and even into the first months I felt like she never left my boob. She had her day and night totally mixed up. I remember producing a crazy spreadsheet (perhaps on the advice of TBW - damned book) and finding no pattern at all in her sleeping habits. However as the days went by she did have longer periods of sleep or wakefulness then by about 3 months things settled into a more manageable pattern. I well remember the sense of panic, feeling that this crazy subterranean life might be my lot for the next couple of years. Things that helped me survive were:

• attending a BF cafe where I met other mums going through exactly the same thing. it was really valuable to get out to somewhere where it wasnt wierd to have a baby physically attached. Strangely this became the first place and time in the week where my DD would actually settle into a deep sleep that could actually be termed a nap... something to do with all the oxytonin in the air. Also at the cafe there was a great set of midwifes and NCT staff who were incredibly supportive.
• I tried to get out of the house for a walk and would put my DD in a sling and later a buggy ... sometimes it would co-incide with a sleep.
• co-sleeping: For the first few weeks I slept sitting up in bed (how crazy was that?) I could get her to settle in her cot and she would only sleep if I was holding her, or so it felt at the time. I was scared to lie next to her in case my OH or I rolled on top of her. A BF counsellor showed me how to sleep on my side next to my baby so that we could feed and drop off to sleep - OMG that was a lifesaver. Later I got an amby cot to go along side our bed and gradually moved her on out into her own room (over months and months)
• I was given a sling to try out by the same BF counsellor (NCT trained) - for the first time I was able to get on with things and she learnt a new way to fall asleep instead of feeding off to sleep.
• I got various people in at a regular times to look after my DD so that I could get a break. It felt awful leaving her as I didnt believe she would settle with someone else - but she did and I got a much needed sanity break.
• Second time around I threw all my books out of the window and tried not to listen to anything but my own heart about what felt right for me and my baby. However if you are going to read anything I would recommend 'The No Cry Sleep Solution', anything by Dr Sears (also has a good website) or the Happiest baby on the Block - Dr Weissbluth.... However just take the bits that feel relevant and avoid using anything as a manual - I drove myself crazy following other peoples advice.
• At the end of the day try to find ways to enjoy your time with your baby and tend to your own needs. Your sleep is a priority - Sleep Deprivation is used as a torture method for good reason. Enlist whoever you can to help you get sufficient rest
• And make sure for the first months at least you try to lie down / sleep when the baby sleeps even if you just close your eyes for a bit and breathe. Go easy on yourself. No one is able to warn you just how tough this job can be - but it does get easier and more rewarding - Thats a promise! OMG I can believe how much ive just written - Its quite cathartic!

Hope even a little of this helps in some way :)

.... just remembered one other thing - sorry! My DD became very colicky in the evenings. So the only thing that would settle her was frantic dancing up and down (Dads job) or BFing. After 2 months of this I was desperate and talking it through with a counsellor she suggested I might have the unusual problem of oversupply cos of all the cluster feeding. She suggested hand expressing some of the fore milk before a feed so that DD would get to the hind milk more quickly, and it worked ... Just an idea - maybe it could work for you too?