channel 4 breastfeeding programme

[lazycow]

Just thought people might be interested if you don't already know.

Channel 4 on Weds 1 Feb. A programme called Extraordinary Breastfeeding is on. The write up in the magazine I'm looking at says:

"You'll be texting your friends about this as soon as it starts. It's about the phenomenon of mothers who breastfeed their kiddies well beyond the age considered 'normal' in this country. Seeing a feisty mum breastfeed her two-year-old twin isn't that disturbing, but the sequence of another lady suckling her 7 year old dughter isn't one we will forget in a hurry. "

I'm looking forward to seeing the tone it takes.

JT, I'm going to stick with judging, if that's OK

you don't need my permission - judge away, I do!

beautiful boy by the way

LOL JT! Do like a good judge of an evening, I must say.

Am just off to bfeed said beautiful boy

Can I just add a teensy little correction? Formula is useful product no doubt about it, but it is not essential to save lives. Babies would not die without it, ffs!! How do you think babies who were not breastfed survived before it became widely available about 40 years ago? Mothers made their own baby 'feed' by diluting ordinary doorstep milk and adding sugar. I think they boiled it , but I might be wrong.

the posts on that other forum were quite hilarious

their emoticons were classy

Nice, always wanted to be called a "Boob Nazi" - although the last time I saw a picture of a Nazi he didn't look like he had boobs.

In fact he was so busy murdering people that he didn't get a chance to talking about how lovely breastfeeding is.

Good point tiktok - I am amazed that people still talk about formula saving lives. Formula does NOT save lives in the poorest countries. In fact it is a contributory factor in early infant death because formula does not protect a child against disease in those countries.

They talk about formula feeding in their cosy little suburban homes in Europe as though it's the same as formula feeding in the middle of the desserts of say Sub-Saharan Africas. There is some serious misinformation going around.

What people don't like to talk about - in fact, I doubt many are even aware - is the fact that formula actually kills babies. And not just in the third world where clean water etc is unavailable. Even in the West, a formula-fed baby is more likely to die than a breast-fed baby. And no, this does not only apply where formula has been prepared in unhygienic circumstances. Studies suggest that a formula-fed baby is almost twice as likely to die in its first year of life as is a breast-fed baby. These figures apply after other socio-economic factors have been taken into account. Tragic that so many think the choice between breastmilk and formula is like choosing between coca-cola and pepsi....

Jools, you ask (some way down thread) people to accept that some mothers don't want to breastfeed, even though they know it's the best.

Seems you are exasperated: you feel that some breastfeeding supporters think that merely repeating the fact that formula feeding has health risks will convince these mothers to change their minds.

I think it's fair to say that sticking to the facts is sometimes enlightenng to people, especially those new to the issues. There are people who genuinely don't know the facts, and can then weigh these againist their personal preferences.

For some women, their pesonal preferences will win out, partly (at least) because they do not accept that the documented health risks may apply to them - and of course they may well be right, because we can't 'bet' on which risks our own family may succumb to. It's also true that in the west, at least, a lot of the 'everyday' risks of formula feeding (increased gastro-intestinal illness, ear infections, chest infections), while miserable, are not life-threatening or serious. Even the rather more serious risks, such as diabetes, are manageable in the west, and anyway unusual enough to make it easier to assume it won't happen. The other very serious risks are very rare, and anyway, because it is not 'cause and effect' but balance of risk, and because there are other factors involved, these risks are not likely to weigh strongly, unless you have had (say) Chron's disease (to pick just one of these) in the family and know what it can mean.

People (on the whole) don't make decisions based on some sort of actuarial calculation, and when it comes to infant feeding, the personal is likely to weigh very strongly.

That's why it makes no sense to bang on and on abut health factors in campaigns to increase the nos. of women breastfeeding. Far more effective would be practical measures to improve training among health professionals and education to help the women who want to do it, to have a good experience.

The women who actively want to formula feed should get decent help and information, too, but this is likely to be hard with formula manufacturers in competition with each other and with breastfeeding.

good post tiktok. I agree that there tends to be too much emphasis on the negative aspects of formula feeding, and the attendant risk of people zoning out from the discussion.

I for one would welcome more emphasis on the positive experiences of bf, however this can be difficult when bf mothers are accused of makig other people feel guilty about bottlefeeding, or (worse) or being perverted, sick and abusive.
The best advert for bf is the experience of a happy bf mother.

I agree Titok. Emphaising the negative is not the way to encourage people.

And I think there is generally a consensus on her (and the other thread about Breastfeeding myths) that was is really needed is support for the mother that wants to breastfeed.

From people's expereinces on here, it is painfully obvious that such support is sadly lacking. And yet, giving that support and so preventing those women who were willing to give breast feeding a go from giving up would have a fantastic mulitplier effect, as more of them would be seen out and about and so encourage others to see it is normal.... and so on.....

I was lucky - I got that support, witohut fuss, from my maternity hospital. What is so sad and so shocking is how many people did not - and still don't - get that support.

Titktok - I like most of what you say and agree.

But I don't agree that banging on about the health benefits of BF is counterproductive.

The OVERWHELMING reason I chose to breastfeed my son and the reason most other women I know choose to BF, are the health benefits.

For me it wasn't a case oh well BF looks easy or can't be bothered with bottles, so I will BF. It was the HEALTH benefits.

I would like to see more training of health staff too. But I would like them to tell women and MEN (fathers are very important in supporting BF) the pro and cons of BF and formula feeding.

Personally I would be very p* off indeed if I had a say a MW say to me ok let's help you BF, but don't worry love, if you can't do it there is always the powdered milk at hand.

This is a cop out and to be honest a serious public health issue.

Nanneh - They are talking about formula feeding in our cosy little suburban homes because that is what this debate is about - breastfeeding in Europe, Not Africa, no third world country - here. The program about extended breastfeeding shows women in Britain and the debate is about the effect that this program will have on breastfeeding rates in this country in light of the current poor uptake. (FWIW I read Tiktoks post as referring to formula not saving lives in this country, unless you are aware of third world countries that boil up milk and add sugar as a breastmilk substitute?)

LucyJu - as for "Formula actually kills babies" (in the west). Sorry - that's rubbish. However, can you provide links to the studies you refer to that take into account the socio-economic factors? I'd be genuinely interested to read them.

"Even in the West, a formula-fed baby is more likely to die than a breast-fed baby. And no, this does not only apply where formula has been prepared in unhygienic circumstances. Studies suggest that a formula-fed baby is almost twice as likely to die in its first year of life as is a breast-fed baby."

But what you have to consider is the risk of a baby dying in the first year of life anyway - I'd guess it's pretty small and therefore even though the risk may be higher if formula fed, that risk is probably still so small that it's highly unlikely your baby is going to die.

Fantastic post tiktok - kind of what I've been trying to say but you summed it all up beautifully!

A bit like when there was the 'pill scare' in 1995 and women all ran out to change their brand without actually looking at the absolute risk of DVT which was still tiny - much less than when pg! OH NO, TWICE THE RISK - PANIIIIIIIIIC!

Tik;

Horribly late to this thread - been reading with fascination.

Re: making your own formula in days of yore - no, they didn't boil it. Not in my family, anyhow.

My Great Grandmother had 11 children and by the time the last two arrived (twins) her milk supply had given out completely. So they were fed on cows' milk. Anecdotally, it wasn't boiled but then they lived on their own farm so probably felt they had nice clean cows!

Also strongly agree that piling the pressure on mums to bf isn't working. I believe the "breast is best" campaign was based on research in the '90s that showed women didn't breastfeed because they were unaware it had benefits. I think most women have heard the message now and it's more like the anti-smoking campaign: when this first came out and the message was that Smoking Gives You Cancer it was very easy to ignore because it patently didn't - everyone knew someone who smoked like a chimney into old age. The people who could be reached by the health message stopped - but the vast majority continued to smoke. What is making a difference now is smoking becoming socially unacceptable. Similarly, the only thing that will affect the bf rates is when bf becomes a socially "normal" thing to do, which in turn will lead to more support for bf-ing mothers.

Which is why sensationalist media coverage is so damaging. I'll be watching this program with interest.

I agree GDG, the level of understanding of science in this country is pitiful and not helped by shabby media reporting.
interesting question nanneh - whether people choose to bf because of the health benefits. I can honestly say - no. I chose to bf because it is to me the completely normal way to feed and comfort a baby - in my family that is. and I think that is very powerful - what is normal. It is more than being supported - when bf is the default choice then bf rates will rise. imho

r3dh3d x posts

squarer - see babymilkaction.org

There have been numerous reported cases of baby deaths due to contaminated formulas in the Western world.

Israel: parents of 2 Israeli babies went to court against formula company (Isreal is a westernised, very modern country, very advanced medicine, etc). Their 2 babies died and 12 others seriously harmed due to contaminated formula milk.

There have also been numerous reported cases of babies who have died in Western Europe, USA and Cananda due to formula contamination.

The numbers may be small in the West (which is what I am sure you are going to pick up on Squarer), but the fact they happen at all is a disaster.

I think there are loads of cases on the BMA website if you care to read them. In November 2005 Nestle had to recall its formula from several European countries (I remember the Italian case well) due to contamination of the packaging.

nanneh - if it makes you feel better, my children are putting no strain on the NHS whatsover, despite being largely formula fed. From my NCT group, I'm still close to 3 mothers who between them now have 8 kids, I have 3. All of the other 3 mothers have breastfed and I largely formula fed. Among their 8 children 5 have eczema (a couple quite bad), and between them they've had several visits to A&E with very nasty chest infections, difficulty breathing (bordering on asthma) they've had ear infections the lot - you name it, all the common childhood illnesses, they've had them. My 3 have had not one of these conditions - not one.

I doubt any of this has anything to do with how they were fed and everything to do with genetics - when I decided to stop breastfeeding I did weigh up the likelihood of having sickly children, decided, based on family history that it was very unlikely - and I was right.

Anyway, I know these anecdotal stories really irritate on these threads but just thought I'd illustrate that at least my formula fed children are not a burden to the NHS.

harpsi - I didn't have any one in my family BF more than for a few months so it wasn't a case of my family do it so I will do it too. There are many many women in my situaion who have not seen a baby being breastfed at all, ever. In these situations the health benefit argument becomes important.

I still BF my 19 month old, not because I think it will save him from having a cold, but because he loves it and so do I. But initially when I didn't realise how wonderful BF is as a mothering experince, the fact that I knew my son would have numerous health benfits won the day.

I think tiktoks post sums it up and there's not much more to add for me.

Enjoy the programme!!

I might watch!

nanneh - I accept that you and others do choose to bf mainly because of the health benefits, and that highlighting these, as part of an educational programme to inform new and pg mothers, is valid. I think , though , that 'banging on and on' about the health benefits without an attendant programme of training and support (which is the situation we are in now) is not helpful, and in fact it's very cruel to mothers who are not given support, have a crap bf experience and give up, and then spend the next few years worrying it's 'their fault' their baby did not have a healthy start (especially if their baby develops one of the conditions known to be associated with not being breastfed or not being breastfed for long).

At the same time as the 'banging on and on', we have health professionals, and individual mothers have friends and family, who tell them it doesn't matter really, and formula fed babies are just as healthy, and the risks of adverse effects are practically non-existent....none of which is true.

I don't think we should keep quiet about the health aspects at all - it's the 'banging on and on' without the necessary support that irritates me

GDG - I am glad that your babies are healthy. That's the way it should be.

I was not suggesting that people like you are a burden to society. That is the least of my worries.

Yes, your case is very anecdotal I am afraid. I don't use my healthy 19 month old as the argument to breastfeed. I know plenty of BF babies who get more sick more often than him, so it's not a logical argument.

I prefer to look at global health statistics. They give me a far more accurate picture of formula feeding.