Wine and breast feeding...

[twogirls1more]

I enjoy the odd glass of wine with dinner and am just trying to work out what's best considering I'm currently breast feeding my 5 day old son...
I'm breast feeding mostly but as he's vv hungry and not settling well we've taken to giving a couple of top up bottles of formula in the evening and during the nt, (mainly so we can get a few hours sleep!!)
How long does a couple of units take to leave your breast milk once drunk? Last couple of nts I've had prob a unit or two with dinner about 8pm, then not breast fed til around 3-4am. Would my milk by then be clear?
Thanks for advice girls! :)

OP, when I read your original post I honestly assumed you were a first-time mum seeking to EBF who didn't know that giving formula so early on would risk bf being successful. That's why I posted - I would have phrased it a bit differently had I known that a) you're on your third baby and b) you don't mind if bf doesn't work out. I didn't - and I don't think anyone has - turn it into a FF vs bf debate. If you're happy to FF that's obviously your choice, and that's fine - but I would have hated it if you really wanted to bf and didn't realise that giving formula this early on could potentially stop it from happening. That's not the same as discussing "bf v ff" at all. And while you're right to say that different things work for different families, that doesn't mean you can ignore basic biology. If you give formula to a 5-day-old baby and go for 8 hours or so at night without feeding, your own milk supply will be compromised and bf is less likely to succeed. If you're happy with that, then there isn't a problem. We all just posted in case you weren't happy with it as there is a lot of misinformation (or lack of understanding) about bf out there and some women genuinely wouldn't realise that was true, and would feel upset when bf wasn't working out and they didn't know why. Honestly, no-one is getting at you! Congratulations on your DS

I can't imagine how someone might feel if they posted the OP and no-one told them formula might affect their supply and they were posting a few weeks later saying their supply was drying up and then people told them supplementing with formula would have affected their supply.

OP, people are trying to help and support you in your BF. I also have 4 DC at home now, including a baby and at first, when the feeding is very frequent and takes along time, (for me along with cracked, bleeding nipples and mastitis twice in the first month, plus a few other problems) BF is really hard. I felt like my other children were losing out and the housework, cooking etc were not really getting done if at all. It was very, very hard at first. Now, 5 months on, I am still BF and it is SO easy I cannot imagine any other way of feeding a baby and it enables me to spend more time with my other children now and has done for some time. Those early weeks, where it was so time consuming and hard, were so worth it. (and it's still worth it even though I still keep getting blasted mastitis!)

Wow.

OP, it's as if you parked your car on a hill, got out, asked for directions, and then bit the head off the passer by who pointed out your car was rolling steadily downhill.

I appreciate your original question was about alcohol, not whether your strategy was jeopardising future breastfeeding, but the kindly strangers here were trying to help you avoid a crash.

The next poster who starts a thread about some aspect of feeding but happens to throw in a comment which suggests things may be about to go wrong, would get the same sort of advice. Unsolicited, perhaps, but potentially a helpful 'save'.

As I said in my other post, no-one has judged you.

Enjoy the odd glass or two of wine 2g1m, relax and sleep as much as you can with the busy family life you have.
5 days after birth you will (likely) be knackered and emotional. Take some time for yourself then come back for advice; people are trying to help you successfully bf as it will hopefully help you in the early weeks.
If you can, do a big bf early evening before ds's first long sleep, then have the wine so it fits round your routine.
If you plan to bf for a while this will help supply (& breast comfort) more than doing a couple of formula bottles in a row.
Enjoy your baby

In fairness to the OP, her posting name is twogirls1more so I assumed from that that ds was her third.

But twogirls I really think you are over-reacting just a tad! Unfortunately there are a lot of women out there who have been given bad breastfeeding advice by MW's and HV's and one thing you will never get from tiktok is bad bfing advice. She is a bf counsellor and always gives excellent, well-researched advice and anyone who has been on MN for a long time knows this.

It's only information. If you're already well-informed and are happy to mix feed, then no harm done!

Ummm "kicking off?!" Now who's exaggerating?! "avoiding a crash" "a helpful save" blimey! Sorry but think some of you take this whole breastfeeding lark way too seriously! I was purely calmly making my feelings known re the tone of a few responses on here tbh! I don't have my own little support group on here or network of mumsnet friends as only used a bit more recently and so having asked opinions of a couple of trusted friends and DH (who also thought that a few of you could've handled your comments better,) I voiced my opinion as you've all done. It was only ever a simple q that required a simple answ not for anyone to go off onto a different subject. I should've known better really than to ask advice frm a bunch of people I don't know frm Adam and who don't know me. Will stick to trusted friends in future cos this has all just got a bit silly! tiktok may be a breastfeeding counsellor or she may not but one thing's for sure, I don't know her and it doesn't mean that there's one rule for all. Alot of you obviously have a lot of respect for her though, (seems to have generated quite a fan club!
Have had my latch checked out and apparently it's fine. Thanks anyway squiggle.
Yes, would've thought that my nickname may've given away the fact I have more than one child (must update it really as have 3 DD's now and 1 DS.
Thanks for any positive comments!

Another BFing wine drinker here!

Didn't drink at all her first week but that's only because we were in hospital and couldn't!

Now I have a small glass with dinner and maybe another later on but I can time her feeds pretty well now as she's 8wks.

Last week I did get pretty paranoid that her skin was yellowing and she had liver damage as a result of my wine habit. But DH, the HV and a doc all tell me she's perfectly pink.

The guilt us mothers go through eh.

Aw....twogirls, you are newish to mumsnet and maybe to internet forums, so that may explain some of what's happened.

I did not assume you had one baby or three or six, but it's perfectly ok, I still think, to speculate that you were not aware that giving formula at 5 days would undermine breastfeeding, and to speculate you might be interested to know (because most people at 5 days are interested in continuing breastfeeding)....and as breastfeeding was described in your post, no one would guess you would take offence.

The trusted friends you plan to talk to in future would prob say exactly the same to you, too, wouldn't they ? Unless you really are as chippy, defensive and quick to take umbrage when people offer support and information you think is misplaced...and I bet you aren't :)

Just leave it. Enjoy your baby and your family, and come back to mumsnet again on another occasion :)

Leave her alone, Bluddy - that is ganging up! :(

twogirls I came on this thread as I too was wondering how fast alcohol processes through milk. I found the answer to my (and your) question, along with lots of other helpful and well meaning advice. I feel that you have been very unfair to the ladies who have taken the time to try and help as best as they could given the info in your OP.

I often come on MN for advice on a range of issues. I take on board the bits that I think will be helpful, and ignore anything I don't agree with. I am always grateful for the time people take to try and help though. I think it's a bit off to turn on the people that are trying to help.

You got me there, Bluddy, indeed you would

OP yes to wine o'clock! its fine as long as you dont over do it. The odd drink has kept me going up to now (bfing for 7 weeks so far so good)

I think you are right what works for one wont work for another. DP started giving DS2 a FF bottle at night from about 10 days so I could get a fair few hours sleep and my supply is absolutely fine. Infact some days he might have 2 - 3 bottles in the day if DP takes him to see his family, I just express a couple of times to make sure my boobs dont explode. I dont think its very accurate or fair for anyone to say you are undermining bfeeding as its working out for you so far so carry on what you are doing.

And.........if I can just say very quitely that some of the posts on here have read to me to be a little condescending and a bit gangy uppy on the OP. As for OP showing it to others - no harm in checking if you are being too sensitive or not (in this case OP, IMO you are not being too sensitive, but there again I dont think the majority of the pp's meant for their posts to read the way they have)

As a side what does make me is if someone asks about giving a bottle its "your supply will be affected, its detrimental etc etc" and yet I thought that your breasts are these amazing things that adjust to the demands of what the baby needs so surely if you give a bottle then your milk is adjusted accordingly? again.

Oh no, bad feeling on the breast bottle forum, my go-to reassurance nice forum :(

I know nap- hiding this as I am anxious enough about bf dd2 after poor experience last time

nap - don't go away, it's still a nice forum :)

molly - I am not sure what you want to hear, to be honest. Giving formula affects supply, giving formula undermines breastfeeding....this is 100 per cent correct.

It is especially the case in the early days (and the OP's baby was only 5 days when a couple of bottles of formula had already been introduced in the evening/night so even more of a risk. This is not to say that everyone's experience with this will be identical, but the info is accurate and based on a shed-load of evidence both practical and physiological. You have got a 'system' that works for you, and that's fine - but it would not work for everyone (it actually wouldn't work for most), and even in your case, the reason it is currently sustainable is because you are expressing on the occasions your ds is not bf....not what the OP was doing.

Don't be . Breasts in the early days and weeks need frequent stimulation in order to establish and protect the production line - in fact it is vital. Read up about prolactin receptors, and the explanations on kellymom.com. Your breastmilk adjusts downwards pretty rapidly if these early days include formula feeding, and the whole system dwindles to zero over time. This is nature assuming there is no baby after all - and the production line grinds to a halt so the mother does not produce breastmilk at all.

This is not the case with well-established breastfeeding, and there are threads here at the moment from mothers who have taken/are contemplating taking time away from bf (eg with a toddler) and their supply will be fine.

Hope none of that's taken the wrong way as a lecture - it's an explanation and it's not so much directed at you but at anyone who is puzzled about 'supply and demand' in the same way :)

OP, sorry that you feel you're being ganged up on. I think the thing is that if you want, as your first post states, to continue to offer breastmilk in any quantities at all, you should probably avoid offering a bottle of formula for the first few weeks, until you've established your supply. As other posters have said, even one breastfeed is better than none - but if you risk your supply this early, you're running the risk of not being able to offer breastmilk at all in the future. Given that you do say you want to breastfeed, it seemed sensible for posters (including the extremely knowledgable, trained breastfeeding counsellor Tiktok) to suggest ways in which you could build and maintain a good supply in the early days. That's not 'ganging up', that's offering considered and sensible advice. You do seem a little defensive, but 5 days in, I'd probably be the same if anyone questioned anything I was doing as a mother!

As for the wine, as several posters have said, there's no harm to your baby in the odd glass. If you were cosleeping, that might be another matter. I'm just impressed that you can drink a glass without instantly falling asleep, at this early stage!

Oops. Should have refreshed - embarassing crosspost with Tiktok.

Hi, sorry to hjack, may I clarify drinking and bf as i have been having a glass of wine at night at 6pm after DS goes to bed and then doing a dream feed at 10pm ish, is that ok? DS is 5 months and I have been started having a glass of wine again which is lovely but worry I am doing damage. Does anyone know exactly how long the alcohol takes to leave the system? TIA

Tiktok - I dont want to hear anything??? I just asked a question .

WRT formula affecting supply I still think its inaccurate to say it will 100% undermine bfeeding as it hasnt affected my supply in the slightest (DP works shifts so some nights I do this evening feed that DP normally does and I still have milk and DS is satisfied so maybe its 99% accurate? Or is it that Im a bit of a freak??), there again the longest I go without feeding or expressing is about 9 - 9.30pm-ish to about 2am and this is since was 10 day old so not really that established? Or can 10 days be considered established for some?

TBH I was thinking along the same lines as some others on this thread - wouldnt want anyone reading this who is struggling with sleep etc and wanting to introduce a FF to save their sanity (like me!) being put off by people saying that supply will be absolutely affected and bfing undermined when it possibly wont. I thought about stopping bfeeding again because I was just so bloody tired, my MW / HV were dead against my suggestion of giving a FF so soon but I thought Id give it a go before giving up bf and its worked, so it may well work for others and keep someone bfeeding for the majority of the time

I wasnt either, I was genuinely as I just thought that supply adjusts upwards or downwards. Guess this has just proved how posts can be taken in totally the wrong way

Sorry, to further add to my question the amount in a glass of wine can vary enormously and should I be measuring strictly 1 unit?

molly, I genuinely did not know what you wanted to hear. Sometimes people recount their own experience and want to have it affirmed, and their question is not really a question, IYSWIM. So I was expressing uncertainty as to what you wanted....

It is 100 per cent accurate that formula in the early days affects breastfeeding, undermining it. This may not have identical outcomes, of course, but it is undermining - for some, they may get away with it, and their supply is apparently unaffected. They may have a humungous amount of milk from the start, and the occasional formula bottle makes no difference - but the bottle is undermining, even so.

Undermining does not mean 'makes milk disappear' - but it cannot be anything but undermining to the process of breastfeeding.

It may be helpful to the experience of breastfeeding in individual cases - for example, the mother at the end of her tether may feel it is a good support emotionally and psychologically (though it is not the only way she can be supported in this way). It may even keep her going, as you suggest.

But physiologically, it is undermining and women need to know this. They also need to know night feeds are esp. important; that it is normal for babies to feed a lot; that help from partners can come in all shapes and ways and not just bottles.

So far, you have found all is well and at the moment you are very happy with what is happening, that's good :)

Sorry for mixing up and . That was a genuine error on my part :)

ljll - google breastfeeding network alcohol breastfeeding for a very good factsheet on this which I am certain you will find totally reassuring....you are absolutely not damaging your baby doing what you are doing but the factsheet will give you the, er, facts :)