Turning the benefits of Breastfeeding into the risks of formula LIST

[rubberduckduck]

What do people think of this?

here

Just how much of this can be proved with current studies? eg.less likely to be alive on their third birthday.

Talk about scare mongering?

Hear, hear Cloudydays. Think we should just copy and paste that message into every effing bf/ff thread...

Cloudydays you have nothing to feel guilty about. You perservered because you thought it was best. Sometimes it is best but thank god formula is there when it doesn't turn out to be. How many of us could spot dehydration in a newborn anyway?

Your post is a perfect example of why the strongly anti-FF sentiment espoused above is ignorant and objectionable. It says something about the poster, nowt useful about infant feeding.

Cloudydays, we had the same experience except we were incredibly lucky that our MW spotted it before it got serious enough for hospitalisation.

I have one photo of my skeletal 7 day old DS that I can barely look at .

I applaud your post but sadly it will fall on deaf ears for those like Leonie that take great pleasure in making others feel bad about not being able to bf. She takes smugness to a whole new level and does her 'cause' no good at all.

I strongly suspect she doesn't speak to her friends (if she has any) in RL like this - if any of my friends said this to me they wouldn't be friends - but like most cowards she is able to hide behind the anonymity of an internet forum to be as unpleasant as she wants.

Her problem.

Gaelic - I know what you mean about the semantics of risks of not breastfeeding versus risks of formula. I think of it this way too.

Cloudydays - lovely post :)

Leonie - yes, you have the right to voice your opinion but people also have the right to challenge it, particulary if they find it offensive.

I've already told my BFing story on other threads (FF support thread, for example), but I was a mother that didn't have a choice about FFing. The paed prescribed it in hospital on day one because DD wasn't feeding and my pitiful amounts of EBM weren't enough. The list that the OP linked to was like the list of stuff I'd read when pregnant that preyed on my mind and from day one I thought I was terrible because I wasn't doing the best for my child and was putting her in danger by giving her formula (never mind that the Dr insisted and I didn't have a choice!). But infant formula stopped her starving and I am thankful for that. We don't all have access to wet nurses and milk banks on every corner

The '100 reasons to avoid infant formula like the plague' list (nice title, eh?) and other 'info' presented in this way I think is nothing but damaging to mothers and their mental health. And where are her links to sources and evidence?

I too go for the 'every drop counts' message - this is what I tell myself even now as I give my mostly FF daughter a BF first thing in the morning. I put myself down for ages thinking I wasn't BFing properly because she only got a tiny amount of BM compared to all the formula she's getting, but as someone else on MN told me, she still gets antibodies and that's good, and besides, it's not all about mls of milk. And we enjoy it :)

When she was born I didn't think we'd get to 6 days BFing, but here we are at nearly 7 months. For me, the 'every drop counts' message keeps me going :)

Leonie - try to put yourself in my shoes - I suffer depression and have struggled to bf all three dses for various reasons, as I detailed in an earlier post. If, whilst struggling to bf, or afterwards whilst struggling with depression and the feelings of guilt and failure, you had seen this list that you so heartily endorse, how would it have made you feel? Can you not see how hurtful and cruel that list is?

Why are you surprised that people are upset that you agree that us wicked formula feeders

• won't be properly bonded with our dc

• will have less intelligent dc

• are risking our children's very lives

• don't cuddle our children enough

....and that's just from the first dozen or so!

Do you really think it is sensitive or caring to go round expressing or endorsing such opinions? Because if you do, it can hardly be any surprise to you that people might be upset, can it??!!

leonie ONE person has said they agree with a statement that YOU made bringing up the bfeeding 'nazi' labes, the rest have made intelligent, well thought out posts detailing why they find the way in which you post disagreeable and offensive and most posters have been supportive of bfeeding and have said undoubtably its what we should all strive for but instead of being critical of 'poor excuses' as you call it they focus on being supportive of what women are doing and that they are TRYING to do their best..

and cloudys post is amazing!! well done cloudy. :)

stayindavid, dont feel guilty, another mother with mental health issues here (tho fine at the moment thankfully!) and one think that my cpn helped me with was to ditch inappropriate guilt, sounds like you are still holding onto it, do try and let it go, it is hard i know but i am sure you are a wonderful mum who loves her dses dearly xxx are you on fb?

Yes, I am on fb, 4madboys (love the name, btw - I have 3madboys - lol). I will pm you my real name, if you are there and want to add me. And you are right about the guilt, and letting go of things - that is something I talked about a lot at my last therapy group, and it was painful but helpful.

boys are fab, as are girls! best not start a debate on the sexes as well! and i keep getting told to change my name as i now have a pink one as well! but i like my name as it is, i started off as 3madboys when i first registered and then became 4mad, and he will be 3 soon!

will look out for you pm :)

have found you and sent a request btw :) right best get on with dealing with small people and tidying up before friend arrives with her three small people....

Oooohh 4madboys you should drop in a mention of how great it is that you get to stay at home / go out to work [delete as appropriate] and we'll have the trifecta! This could be the most exciting thread ever!

Thanks for the nice comments, all. and hairymelons thanks for the reassuring words. Why is it that the most useless emotion (guilt) seems to be the hardest one to shake?

ooo I really want to start that thread in AIBU cloudydays.

Oh my goodness, I've just read some of the comments underneath this ludicrous list. One from a childbirth educator wants to print the list off and put it up in her classroon This kind of thing could play havoc in the mind of a new mum struggling to feed her baby. It could positively contribute to PND! So, so irresponsible and misguided .

I know it's been said already but these women can't really care about helping others to manage what can be an uphill struggle- it's hard enough without 'if I can't do this I'm shit' going round your head.

Some kind things said about me, downthread, thanks v. much :)

I have been otherwise occupied and haven't contrib'd to mumsnet in the past couple of weeks or so, but I've just seen this thread and sighed a bit.

The list posted in the OP comes from the 'Provisional' wing of infant feeding activism. It has its direct equivalent in the far-out reaches of formula feeding - equally bonkers and equally unsisterly and equally too-damn-fucking-ignorant to pay much attention to, IMO.

Except when it gets publicity on a busy forum like mumsnet.

Then people who have axes to grind come out and wave their banners - naming no names. They forget, or don't care, more likely, that infant feeding, however it's done, is not just culturally-mediated, but also emotionally and psychologically mediated. Feeding, in many ways, is mothering. So if you say something horrid about formula, you have to be very sensitive and kind and careful to make it clear you are not being horrid about the people who give the formula ie the mothers. Because whether they have a choice or not (and some people don't, or else the choice is not a realistic one), it still matters that they don't feel other people are being critical of them.

Of course, it doesn't matter that 'random strangers on the internet' criticise or appear to criticise - but if you are a mother who used formula and is feeling even the tiniest bit defensive about it, it can seem as if it does matter.

The other reason for being sensitive is that when you are not sensitive, people who oppose your views and the way you express them make merry - and they make merry by lumping in every breastfeeding supporter with the 'Provisional' wing as if we all thought, spoke and behaved the same.

This does breastfeeding women and breastfeeding a real disservice - and it certainly makes the 'Provisionals' sound as if they have a lot more support, and are a lot more numerous, than they are.

Knowing when to shut up - yes, even when 'expressing an opinion' - is important in life, and on the internet.

HBW - Hi, don't think we have 'spoken' on this forum before but I want to applaude your attitude and work. How refreshing - someone who can push the BF message without judging formula or making FF mums feel like second rate citizens! Hurahh for you nd others like you (tiktok at al)

Leonie, I think you are confusing stating your opinion with eing an arse.

Here is an example of an 'opinion'. "I hink the KKK do a fantastic job". Result of an opinion - that person is a knob. The person can state thier opinion all they want, it doesnt stop it being ill informed, damaing or inflamitory. YOU undo a lot of the hard work of some people here.

DD1 was FF as I was unable to BF, she's perfectly healthy and very intelligent. DD2 was BF, she was a small baby and has many severe eye problems. My Nephew was BF to age 3yrs, he has some kind of blood/immune problem which my sister has been told he has because she BF - FF children do not have this. Now I agree that if you are able to BF then great but some of these threads make out that FF mothers should be locked up and the children will turn into mutants! Each to their own I say. Some mothers are just not able to do it. I spent weeks breaking my heart and feeling like a complete and utter failure when i should've been getting on with loving and nurturing my nb. Some people need to get a grip!

NoodlesMam - you see your post is an example of the opposite 'provisional' wing of infant feeding activism.

You say "DD1 was FF as I was unable to BF, she's perfectly healthy and very intelligent. DD2 was BF, she was a small baby and has many severe eye problems."

This is not a useful contribution to the debate - a sample of two babies is too small to mean anything :( :(

"My Nephew was BF to age 3yrs, he has some kind of blood/immune problem which my sister has been told he has because she BF - FF children do not have this."

'Some kind of blood/immune problem' unknown in ff babies and actually caused by bf???? The only thing it can possibly be is vertical (mother to child) transmission of HIV - and I take it that this is not the case? Now - we hear about 'scaremongering' related to formula feeding. How about your 'some kind of blood/immune problem' as an example of scaremongering?!

'some of these threads make out that FF mothers should be locked up and the children will turn into mutants!' Now that is utter, utter tripe - ridiculous exaggeration, and a shining example of rubbish from the extremist formula feeding camp!

I'm not pro FF tiktok nor am I against it. Like I said - if you can BF then great but stop kicking those who can't or choose not to. My nephew does have a problem with his immune system - NOT HIV, something missing, which is obviously missing in his mother who was also breastfed. My sister was told that he had this missing whatever it is because he was BF. I'm not scaremongering at all. My point is that whilst all the research points to BF being best for baby, if you can't do it, it's not the end of the world. there ARE threads on here that make out that FF mothers should be locked up and the children will turn to mutants whilst there are also threads beating those who exclusively BF. It's all bloody rediculous - as long as the child is being fed to the best of the mothers ability, is loved and nurtured then who cares??? I spent a very long time feeling guilty, like a failure to my DD1 because I couldn't BF, it spoiled the first few weeks with her. There should be more support for those struggling to BF, like I said I know that nutritionally it must be best but if you can't do it then you just cant do it and you should then be supported to move on and get on with feeding your nb the best way possible

I think people should know the risks that come with not breastfeeding. Although they may scare mums its the risk some mums have to take. It should not offend any one.

Only ignorant or unkind people criticise others for ff.

I still think you are scaremongering when you post such scanty details about this immune problem - it now seems it cannot be caused by bf if his mother also has it. Blood problems are not passed on in the breastmilk. Please stop implying they are - if you don't fully understand your nephew's problem or cannot name it, then it's wiser to be silent about it.

I have never seen a thread - even ones populated by the craziest posters - which say formula feeding is an imprisonable offence or that children who are ff turn to mutants. It's quite preposterous to insist these threads exist.

Of course mothers need support, and those who feel guilty deserve even more. No argument with you there, at all.

To be fair to tiktok, she is not someone who could fairly be accused of "kicking those who can't or choose not to [breastfeed]".

But she is absolutely right that claims that there are diseases in babies that are caused by breastfeeding really can't be allowed to go unchallenged. It is simply not true, and somewhere along the line, NoodlesMam, your sister or you must have misunderstood the cause of the "missing whatever it is" in your nephew's immune system.

I don't mean to be harsh, because I don't think that your intention is to misinform, and I agree with your general point re: a live and let live attitude toward infant feeding, but what you are doing really is scaremongering, whether you mean to or not.

There is nothing that formula can give to a baby that is superior to what a baby would get in breastmilk. There is no disease that formula can prevent or cure that breastmilk would cause or exacerbate.

Formula is sufficient nutrition for a baby, but it is not and never could be superior to breast milk, and certainly not in regard to supporting the immune system in any way.

Noodlesmum - as her child would her ds not be likely to inherit the immune system defect via genetics and being, well, half her?
I have a blood immune disorder and I can bf without any risk to the baby. There seems to be a slight grey line over large doses of the drug I take passing through if you look hard enough on the internet but my consultants pooh poohed that.
I am genuinely interested and not trying to push an opinion/debate here.

I think what Noodles was trying to do was to show that there are exceptions - yes, three is far too small a statistical sample, but I think her heart was in the right place.

Anneka - I can see what you are saying. For me it is not neccessarily what is said but how it is said. It is possible to give mothers the information they need to make the best choice for their baby without giving the impression that all formula fed babies will be unloved, unbonded, uncuddled, unintelligent and in all ways inferior to breastfed babies - which is the message I got from the link in the OP.

I cannot remember the name of my nephew's immune problem, I will contact my sister and get back to you on that one. It means that he is more susceptable to certain types of infections and I can only go off what my sister was told by the paed which is that he has this problem because he was breastfed. Formula feed has this particular thing added and therefore it doesn't happen with FF children. I'm not scaremongering at all but if this has worried anyone then I'm very sorry for that. I didn't say that there are threads saying that FF mothers should be locked up, I said that there are threads that imply as such and these are started by those ignorant and unkind people who are criticising those who FF