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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Breast is best. Or is it?

110 replies

RubyBuckleberry · 07/01/2011 20:07

video g by Dr Karleen Gribble exploring the damaging impact of the language we use when talking about how breast is 'best'.

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HaveAHappyNewJung · 08/01/2011 09:53

Oops rather failed the italics there.

"we need to normalise breastfeeding, rather than seeing it as something only done by mother earth types, as it often is."

Agreed!

jandmmum · 08/01/2011 10:07

OK Truthsweet I knew someone would correct me thankyou. I do absolutely believe that bm must be better than ff and thankyou for those links. Perhaps I shouldn't have put the bit about the chemicals as clearly bm has properties that help against infections etc. But is this only the case whilst the baby is still being bf which is only going to be for a relatively short period of their life. So yes during their first few months to years ff babies are more at risk. But I was really thinking on then lines of long term health.
MGF do you have any links to show bf babies born to smokers are healthier than ff babies born to non smokers? I very much doubt that. All things being equal bf will be healthier than ff. But I can't believe bf can totally negate the effects of smoking to the effect that they are still better than never to be exposed to smoke but not bf. It's good stuff it's not a miracle cure. Plus the baby in the smokey household is likely to be exposed for a much longer period than most babies will be bf for.

RJandA · 08/01/2011 10:16

Sorry, haven't got time to read whole thread, so maybe someone has already posted this fictional madmen script:

www.lactivist.net/?p=2340

which explains exactly why "breast is best" plays into the hands of the formula companies... best = ideal, exemplary, perfect. But we're not all perfect are we? Most mums doubt they're even a "good" mum some days, let alone the "best". And when you're sleep deprived, maybe sore from the birth, with the huge responsiblilty of a newborn - well, who can strive to be "best" under those conditions? It makes it seem unattainable.

Having said that, "breast is best" is a catchier phrase than "breast is physiologically normal and avoids the disadvantages associated with formula feeding" dontcha think? Smile

TruthSweet · 08/01/2011 10:32

jandmmum - bf effects the baby for the rest of their life not just the duration of feeding.

There is a NCT poster here that lists some of the effects bfing has on the baby/mother and the length of time they need to bf for to get that effect. One example is 6 weeks of bfing = up to 7 years lower risk of chest infections vs not bfing for 6 weeks.

Or try here no.6 is interesting as even a short duration of bfing protects against the baby developing breast cancer as an adult (not a certainty of not getting it just less likely by 25%).

There are many other effects that last into adulthood/childhood but I don't really have the time to go into all of them Grin so I hope the two I have highlighted help.

TruthSweet · 08/01/2011 10:39

RJandA - I can see the headline in the Daily Fail now......

My Beautiful Baby was Starving to Death until I Defied the Breast is Physiologically Normal and Avoids the Disadvantages Associated with Formula Feeding Bullies

(The real headline was 'My beautiful baby was starving to death until I defied the Breast is Best bullies' Shock - yes we all advocate for the death of babies Angry)

sarah293 · 08/01/2011 10:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

TruthSweet · 08/01/2011 11:41

Jung - Sent to you. Let me know if you don't get it.

Riven - I appreciate you weren't able to bf due to you/your daughter's circs. but other women might be able to given support in different circs - how are we to talk to them honestly if we have to couch bfing in terms of 'special', 'extra', 'super', 'benefits of bfing', etc, etc (instead of 'normal', 'usual' etc, etc) when in effect we would be misleading them?

I do agree though posters as a means of supporting bf as not very helpful and can be very upsetting to some people.

RubyBuckleberry · 08/01/2011 12:18

Sorry about the rubbish link at the start Blush?!

Anyway, really interesting replies - TruthSweet some awesome info from your posts about the iron etc, nice one Grin.

The point is that breast is not best, it is normal, and formula is risky, even in this country. It may not be massive risks - formula is clearly not killing babies left right and centre but lives are changed and sometimes broken because of the culture of formula feeding as a norm and breastfeeding as somehow something special or extra.

incientally i first found the lady on ben goldacre's website here scroll down for karleen gribble's comments commenting on his twitterings about some daily mail article here

btw jack newman does say it is less risky to smoke and breastfeed than to formula feed.

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toddlerwrangler · 08/01/2011 12:39

So the jist for many seems to be:

The way we talk about and refer to BF is critcal to normalising the process and making it the first, automatic way people think of feeding thier unborn baby. BF mothers have a right to feel that they are the 'norm' and we should remember this when we talk of BF and the way we refer to it.

It doesnt matter HOW we talk about FF, as long as we get accross the message it isn't as good as BF. The intense, deep routed, profound and often lifethreatening (due to the links with PND) gulit that some FF mothers feel should not stop the sensationalist way in which many pro BF people refer to formula, as it is important people are fully informed - no matter how.

sungirltan · 08/01/2011 12:45

but there are dangers of ff. although a more accurate terms would be 'risks of formula feeding' its not demonising, its presenting fact. ff demonises itself!

everyone should read 'the politics of breastfeeding'

toddlerwrangler · 08/01/2011 12:53

[And breathe] I'm not saying there isn't!!!!!!!!! My whole issue is that this thread has gone down the route of the importance of the way BF is referred to, and yet posters have said it makes no difference HOW the risks of not BF are promoted. Of course it bloody does.

Once again - I am not against the promotion of BF. I am not against informed choice. I am not against the publication of research that shows the impact FF may have. What I am agsint is sensationalist stories (There are two examples of this right now on the frst page of this board) being used to sare people away from formula, instead of the alleged 'infomed conscent' that so amny pretend to advocate.

I'm not sure if that expalins my exasperation or not. I wish I was more articulate but the fact is I'm not. I just wish this place had a bloody quote function.

RubyBuckleberry · 08/01/2011 13:05

'The intense, deep routed, profound and often lifethreatening (due to the links with PND) gulit that some FF mothers feel should not stop the sensationalist way'

but that is exactly the point isn't it. if bf were normal, if every hcp knew the right information to tell mothers, if mothers were supported in hostpital to get a good latch for the start, if everybody breastfed in public like this lady, and if formula companies were not allowed to line the shelves with boxed with happy bears on them and follow on milk with happy babies on it, lots more women would breastfeed happily and lots more women would not get the PND associated with failing to feed their baby.

how you can call it sensationalist is beyond me, particularly given that the UN Conventions of the Rights of the Child, and various other international agreements state that it is in fact a right for the BABY to be breastfed and for mothers to have accurate information and advice from HCPs about breastfeeding and the risks of artificial feeding.

Until we as women, as mothers, start demanding that we are given the support we deserve instead of accepting that this is our lot and formula is 'not poison' and is a perfectly acceptable way of feeding our babies, nothing will change. as riven said, some poster in a ward somewhere does nothing unless the whole of society backs it up.

OP posts:
RubyBuckleberry · 08/01/2011 13:06

typos galore sorry! typing so fast!

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toddlerwrangler · 08/01/2011 13:10

What I am calling senstaionalist is threads such as two stores on the first page of this very board, citing baies dieing from being FF and also someone else starting to cite 'facts' about BF, being questioned about them and then admitting that they were only starting to lern the facts and diddnt relly know what they were talking about.

Of course BF should be supported - why on erth would I not want effective and appropriate BF support for mums?

RubyBuckleberry · 08/01/2011 13:13

if you could link toddlerwrangler that would be cool.

you spoke of sensationalist stories being used to scare mothers away from formula. i simply thought you meant the facts and figures about all the risks involved that often get called sensationalist rubbish by various anti bf posters.

sorry if any offence. none meant at all...

OP posts:
toddlerwrangler · 08/01/2011 13:13

Formula is an acceptabe way of feeding babies?

toddlerwrangler · 08/01/2011 13:14

Hell no way am I linking and then getting the 'you're shit stirring' lobby on my back. Been there and still smoking from the flaming I got last time thanks.

RubyBuckleberry · 08/01/2011 13:14

acceptable adequate, maybe.

perfectly acceptable, well that is arguable.

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RubyBuckleberry · 08/01/2011 13:14

oh ok fair enough

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toddlerwrangler · 08/01/2011 13:15

No RB - I really take no issues at ALL with informed deciion making, and accurate facts and figures being used to promote this. Fact is fact, even I cant dispute it!

TruthSweet · 08/01/2011 13:24

Toddlerwranger - would you rather people stopped referring to going to the loo? What about those unfortunate few people who have a colostomy bag or who those who are on dialysis who then don't need to wee/poo - are they upset by other people weeing/pooing? How about saying 'I'm hungry'? What about people who have to be feed with a feeding tube instead of chewing/swallowing food?

I suspect not, as a mammalian species we wee/poo, eat food/drink liquids, have sex, breathe, carry our young in our wombs, lactate and grow hair on various parts of our bodies.

They are all normal for us as a species and as a class of species - that is not to say that any one of those processes can't be broken - but that, generally speaking, they are what we have spent millennia doing as mammals.

It is very sad when someone who wants to eat either lacks the physiological capacity or has an illness that prevents it. In the same way it is sad when a mother wants to bf but either through a biological problem (her's/baby's) or through an illness (physical/mental) they are not able to but that does not negate the fact that as a class of species mammals feed their young with milk from their mammary glands.

That said, some people look down on those who ffed (whether choice or circumstance dictated) and that has to stop - now. No ifs or buts.

We don't want it to be institutionalised that we are disparaging about formula and bottle feeding but when we, as a society, are referring to bfing as the norm, some people see that as making ffers feel bad and nothing we can do short of not talking about bfing or pretending there is no differences in outcome will do.

What can we do TW? What language can we use to talk about formula while making it clear that it isn't the biological norm?

toddlerwrangler · 08/01/2011 13:27

I'm not offended - takes alot to upset a gobshite like me :) .

I AM passionate (in case anyone haddn't noticed). I have written my boaring, long 'story' elsewhere but as someone who came so, so close to killing herself over this matter it is something I care very much about. I vowed to myself that no other mother should be made to feel the way I did that night (I am talking suicide notes writte, pilss out, the works), hence why I ask people to think HOW they deliver thier BF message.

Not for one second do I think the message shouldnt be delivered.

TruthSweet · 08/01/2011 13:31

Toddler - I've reported my post for deleting. It seems the discussion has moved about 200 miles in the time it took to type that out and accept a freezer delivery.....must refresh page before posting. Sorry and I hope I haven't upset you.

toddlerwrangler · 08/01/2011 13:47

Don't worry TruthSweet - threads have shifted two pages in this place before I have finished writing a reply to the original question.

I'm not upset. I like a bit of debate anyway.

And in answer to your question, I only think peope shouldn't refer to the loo when they keep telling the person with the colostomy bag how much better and healther it is to pee au naturel, and how bad colostomy bags are for your health Wink .

(That was a joke!)

tiktok · 08/01/2011 13:57

Riven - bf stats - initiation and maintenance - have gone up in the UK in the 18 years you talk about. I have just checked and, the stats in 1995 were 66 per cent initiation (up from 63 per cent in 1990) and the most recent survey we have (2005) shows it's 76 per cent.

These are highly significant rises, and show more movement than say, smoking cessation over the same period.

I don't think we get breastfeeding promotion right either. It seems to me to be a terrible con-trick to bang on about the health effects of bf/not bf without sufficient support in place to make sure bf is a happy, effective experience...this would mean that the people for whom bf is not possible would actually feel more supported (as they are in Scandinavia - if you don't breastfeed there, it is assumed you have had something insurmountable happen to you or your baby and people are very sympathetic, with no judging, according to my Scandi family and friends. Newsflash: it does not mean the mother who does not breastfeed feels great about formula feeding. She may well feel sad, and even guilty but that's because we women beat ourselves up for lots of things).

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