Newborn has lost more than 10% of birth weight - we have til Monday

[FingonTheValiant]

I've posted a few times about 5 day old DS who is really not feeding well. He was weighed today and he's lost 380g since Sunday. The midwife said she wasn't going to "rush me through a&e to the paediatricians just yet", but said she'll come back on Monday pm to reweigh him, and if he hasn't gained enough he'll be hospitalised, and that the paeds will then insist he has formula top ups :(

I'm desperate to avoid this, but I'm now stressed beyond rational thought.

Also, he's refusing one breast completely (screams, flails, kicks etc) and I'm in agony on the other side. I know that that means he's latching badly, but he is drinking, and with a weight gain ultimatum I don't want to interrupt the feeding he's actually doing.

They've told me to wake him and feed him every two hours. But he spends the first 30-40 mins of that fussing/screaming and not feeding, and by the time I've calmed him and got him on and fed I only have 40 mins before we're meant to start again.

They also said I have to top him up with a cup after each feed, so I've bought an electric pump to help with that. But he wont cup feed properly - he doesn't stick out his tongue, he just gulps at it and hits the cup, and half of it is wasted.

How do I fix this mess? I just want to curl up with my baby and cry forever :(

oh poor you :(

i would advise seeing if you can get hold of a breastfeeding counsellor asap to see what's happening with his latch, and to see if you can get him transferring milk a bit better.

here is a list of LLL groups and their phone numbers. see if there is one near you and give them a ring. you can do it now if you want, i know a few LLL leaders and they genrally are fine about people calling in evenings, especially in situationw like this

if he won't cup feed then try a syringe, or tbh even a bottle! i know bottle isn't ideal, but persoanlly i would rather bottle feed EBM than formula!

only other advice I can give is to just go to bed, get naked (both of you) and just try and get him latched on every single time he snuffles or moves! really, just stay there all weekend and feed as much as you possibly can

Has he been checked for tongue tie?

Are you doing lots of lying down together, skin to skin?

Has an infant feeding specialist/lactation nurse watched you feed and checked your latch. I don't mean an ordinary midwife, I mean someone who has been specially trained.

Have you tried Biological nurturing? If you search mumsnet, there are several references to it.

Hang on in there. Some more experienced breast feeders will be along in a minute.

Sorry - crossposted

Fighting the urge to give you a hug! Will I get thrown off if I do?

Firstly, my sympathy. I would feel exactly like you in that situation. I can empathise with the hating one breast and agony on the other side, though- what sorted us out was silicone nipple shields. Helped me through the toe-curling pain on the right-hand side; seemed to make the left-hand side more acceptable to DS.

Erm, I seem to remember when my cousin's DS struggled to latch when first born, they gave her a syringe to feed him EBM with and that worked a treat- do you have one, or could you get one from your pharmacy?

Lastly, you'll have to enlist your partner/mum/best friend to help with the feeds so that you can get the sleep you need to make your milk.

Good luck! You can do it- you're doing a fantastic job and with your determination, you'll do it.

Sod it- I hug in your general direction!

They've checked for tongue tie, he doesn't have it.

We're skin to skin a fair bit, but unfortunately my mum has been coming to help out, and has been making me get up and dressed etc, or helpfully taking him off so that I can rest - and I was too tired to object, and felt guilty as she's only trying to help - I regret that so much now :( I should have put my foot down.

He's not interested in biological nurturing, he just won't do it.

The midwives have sent someone twice - their support worker - so I guess she's trained. But when she came today he was latched on the breast he will take, and she told me I just have to persevere. That's it.

I don't think I can express enough to bottle feed him, how quickly would my supply increase?

I don't know how you fix it although yes do contact a bf counsellor to help you, just wanted to say I struggled with DD when she was born as she would latch but not suck. She was just too sleepy. She finally sucked for the very first time one week after birth. It was a HUGE relief. So the turning point might be just around the corner.

Don't forget it doesn't have to be feeding from the breast or formula - if you are expressing then save your milk so that you can use that for top-ups, and also there is donor milk if your baby is taken into hospital. I was in hospital for 5 days after DD was born and they let her have donor breast milk before my milk came in so that she didn't have to take formula.

I hope you stick with it and that your hard work pays off.

How unhelpful to be given a deadline and no practical help. Agree, ring helplines and hopefully get someone over weekend, they are volunteers so some persistnce needed.

Pain and trouble latching on can all be helped.

I dimly recall this weight percentage stuff but really don't think 10pc is out of the ordinary. Being threatened with a&e is shit work by mw.

Courage! I know it feels so scary now but can be overcome.

How awful for you - I had something very similar with DD1 and ended up being sent straight to hospital. When I got to hospital I told them I wanted to b/f and they did what they could to support me in that - even though part of the 'treatment' was giving DD1 some formula. They did this via a nose tube (watching that tube go in was truly the lowest moment of my life) but the formula seemed to settle her a bit and they were convinced it got her little system working.

I was advised to do as much skin-to-skin as possible, wake and feed my daughter every three hours, use a breast pump to empty the breast she had been feeding from at the end of the feed and then give the EBM (from the end of the previous feed) in a cup. If she drank all that then i also then offered her a small bottle of formula until she wanted no more. This lasted for about 2 days and then we got to the point where she would only feed from the breast and then from the bottle of EBM. In about 2 weeks she was feeding only from the breast and I then went on to exclusively b/f her for 6 months and give her evening feeds until she was 18 months old.

So, don't give up if you don't want to. Take all the help offered and don't beat yourself up about any decisions you make. Good luck :)

OK - try very hard not to panic. They often don't get the hang of feeding properly for a while, and 5 days is very early indeed.

What you need to do is go to bed with him. Take a radio, or your favourite music. Make your room nice and warm so that you can have lots of skin to skin contact, and just stay in bed. Cuddle him, keep him near your breast, drink plenty. Don't think about feeds - just let him latch on as much as possible. Remember to turn over and take him with you every half hour or so.

Pretend you're a cat and he's your kitten!

Honestly - do it, Don't even think of getting dressed til Monday - you need the rest anyway. Good luck.

This happened with my DS1. He's huuuuuge now (tall and powerfully built, not fat) with size 5 feet. He's only 8

Your lo will be fine

I really feel for you, I also really struggled with bf to start with and as I had a really small baby I was also stressed about weight gain. It will all be alright and I think it is important to try and be calm (easier said than done I know). Can you have a day in bed with your baby tomorrow? With lots of skin to skin as others have suggested and just try and feed as often as possible. The syringe is also a good idea. I used to down rescue remedy before each feed to try and keep myself calm, it just sometimes takes a while for a baby to learn to latch on but they will get it in the end.

Oh no, Fingon this must be awful for you.

Here's a link which gives some tips about finger feeding and cup feeding.
www.nbci.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5:finger-and-cup-feeding&catid=5:information&Itemid=17

Definitely try and seek some help like thisis yesterday has suggested. It's fine to say top up with formula but this isn't addressing the problems.

I can't really add anything else to be honest except to say hang on in there, with the right help you can get back on track.

I agree with Seeker 100%. It's hard I know but relax and feed and read and sleep. My son ds2 had a tongue tie and similar things happened (I relaise you have said he hasn't) but all of my children have avoided one breast lol - always the same one. In the end one was massive and the other tiny! Not good but the way of life for a while and ds4 fed for 2 years with no problems from having fed mainly from one breast! I am sure all will be well soon. xx

Agree with seeker - get back to bed, and back to basics :)

Just cuddle and feed, and don't take any notice of the clock. Make sure you keep yourself hydrated and well-fed. When I had issues with DS - lost just shy of 10% and then was always a slow gainer so I fretted a lot - I'd hop in a warm bath to relx myself before getting into bed and feeding lying down. He would always feed well then and i think me being as relaxed as poss was a large part of that.

And if it comes to it, please try not to get upset or feel guilty about formula. It is not evil, and it could just help your DS gain the weight needed to get people off your back, and give you a bit of breathing space to relax and enjoy breastfeeding rather than the stress you are feeling at the moment. As Holly makes clear, this can be temporary rather than guaranteeing the end of breastfeeding, and can just help you to get things back on track.

Best of luck to you and your DS!

Fingon- can you feed him off the side that he will latch on to and then express (at the same time) from the other side?

Have you tried the rugby hold on the side he doesn't like?

How much over 10% has he lost?

The other thing to mention is that my dd didn't regain her birthweight until she was about 3 weeks old. At no point was my GP, midwife or healthvisitor suggesting supplementing. She was having lots of wet and dirty nappies and was happy and alert.

I definitely recommend contacting one of the breastfeeding support organisations.

Hi,

Not sure if this is any help at all but I have heard tell of an amazing breastfeeding consultant just outside London in Twickenham. She came with a very good recommendation and whilst I (in the end) didn't use her services I have since heard that she is just not the type to give up until you are bfing well.

She does charge for her services but I do generally believe that if you pay for a service then you do tend to get one, so if you can afford it may be worth a go.

Look at this website for her contact details.

IME nipple shields are great, only way I could feed DD for nearly 3 months. (tiny mouth, big boob, small nipple - she was a preemie).

She also had Formula in the hospital through a nasal tube and I expressed to put with the formula as much as possible and kept trying to bf at the same time. She is now bf.

Hang in there, I do feel for you but you are doing everything you can.

[hug]

If she has to be admitted it is difficult, but not the end of the world. My dd had the same, we were already hospitalised for jaundice. She was topped up with formula, however, I ended up fully bf her until 2.5 years. So, as long as you express and keep giving her expressed milk either in bottle or cup, it doesn't matter to top up with formula. The more you pump, the more milk you produce and in the end you give all the feeds your milk anyway. The only reason they insist in bottle or cup feeding is because they can write down exactly how much she drinks. Once home again you can slowly switch back to bf and after a few weeks in all likelihood (if this is what you want) she will be fully bf. It is not easy, because you feel you are either giving her a bottle or pumping, it seems never ending and feeding takes over your life, but then again it is only for a few months. And at least in hospitals they have very good pumps.

Fingon. I think there is some great advice here just wanted to add that 5 days is very early - didn't even think they weighed them for a week??

My dd lost over 10% and I know others who lost more still but did get there eventually.

Hang in there.

sorry should have said your ds not dd

I had to top up my little one with formula (20mls syringing after every feed) for a week. It was something that felt wrong and tbh I felt like a failure. That said it only took afew days to increase my milk supply (expressing after every feed also took brewers yeast and nursing tea - no scientific evidence that they work but they helped me)

I think partly I was trying to do too much too soon and not eating/drinking enough so spending a day or two in bed really helped as well. DS has been ebf since then.

Thank you so much for your advice everyone.

I'm going to take him to bed for some skin to skin now - i have to go somewhere at 5 tomorrow, but I plan to stay in bed til then and then come back and go to bed until I have to let the midwife in. Dh can cook and clean.

I just spoke to a LLL volunteer, who gave me some practical pointers for latching him and reducing flailing, and who will email me some more, so I'm hoping to combine that with all the advice on here and hopefully he'll start gaining.

How often can I give him a bottle of EBM before he starts to refuse to breastfeed? I just think it might save my sanity if I can do it occasionally - as it makes me want to cry when the cup feed gets spilled.

crikeybadger he was latching on the other side in rugby hold, but he seems to have realised and now wont do that either :(

He was 3.53kg, and he's lost 380g, so he's lost about 11% I think. I didn't think it was that bad, but the midwife seems to.

I might give nipple shields a try as well.

Thanks for the hugs

Was your milk late coming in?

That the problem with my first DD she lost over 10 percent- bad MW advice that DD was feeding to much and 'helpful' family insisting I got up and taking DD off me.

Took pumping and waking LO to feed to get my milk in - day 5 - then lots of skin to skin contact and me resting and never more than 3 hours between feeds. Think we also used a pip pet to get expressed milk into her.

Also don't assume support worker is any good,she might be great but I had expert MW and trained HVs check the latch all said was fine. It wasn't even when her weight started to go up. Went to bf councilor at local hospital who sat and watch - they made minor adjustment and it was better for me and LO got more milk.

Skin to skin contact and co-sleeping so you do get some sleep.

If it comes to ff supplementing it is better than dehydration - which our DD had first signs off but we did with good help and careful monitoring get turned round before it got serious.

Good luck.

5 days is very early to be giving you deadlines I think - DS lost 10% of his birthweight and was 5 weeks old before he regained it, but at no point was hospitalisation mentioned.

Anyway - tell your Mum to leave you alone, in the nicest possible way! Get into bed with your baby, skin to skin and just let him feed as and when he chooses. Forget every 2 hours, that way lies stress and clock-watching and other things which you don't want. It may be that he wants to feed every 30 minutes, or for 2 hours at a time.

Do you have Lansinoh for your nipples? It will help with any pain and nipple trauma that you have.

Get your DH, or your Mum or whoever is there to keep bringing you plenty to drink and regular snacks.

The pumping will help, but remember that just the action of pumping is helpful at this early stage. Do not worry if nothing comes out, you are still sending the signal to your body that milk is needed.

And do call one of the helplines, they will be able to reassure you and talk you through what you are experiencing.

Try to have confidence in yourself - you can do this.

Try getting your DH to give the cup feed. DS would go mad taking it from me because he could smell my milk, but took it like a dream from DH.

If you can cancel whatever it is you have to do tomorrow then cancel it - 48 hours in bed will do you and your baby the world of good. :)