Bfing, formula and solids.

[MumNWLondon]

DS2 is coming up to 5 months. So far he has been EBF but over the last 2 days have reluctantly given some formula.

He slept through the night at 8 weeks based on 6 feeds (7,10,1,4,7,10) and is a very calm chilled out baby who only wakes at night in cases of genuine hunger.

At 16 weeks he started waking up in the night, initially it was once a night, then twice a night, and by this week although he goes 3 hours between feeds in the morning (I have loads of milk then) by the afternoon its 2 hourly and by (my) bedtime its hourly.

He will not feed for long, totally refuses to suck for long on an emptyish breast (ie when the milk is slow). Feeds are generally rnage from 5-10 mins of each side. I ALWAYS start on emptier side as that way he is prepared to suck a little longer when he is hungrier at the start of a feed, and I alway offer the 1st side again after the 2nd side etc. Have also been taking more milk plus herbal blend.

So last night he fed at 4pm, 5.30pm, 7pm, 8.30pm, 10pm, 11.30pm. When he woke at 1pm he was very cross as my milk was so slow so I offered him a bottle and he drank 4oz of aptamil and then slept all night.

So what to do now? I will try pumping in the morning and saving this for the evening. But am thinking he either needs solids or a bottle of formula at bedtime? I don't really mind cutting back on the BFing as I am going back to work in a month so he'll have formula in the day, can move things around then so that I go back to Bfing at night etc. Otherwise HV said ok to do some solids eg babyrice/carrots/apples/pears from 5 months.

We are going on holiday next week, it is going to be hot (30c+) DH said he is not keen on baby screaming all night and waking up other DC so need to do something about it.

Is it really the case for me that if I want to EBF for the next month then I am destined to have multiple night wakings and a hungry baby?

I start on the emptier side to stimulate supply - he is prepared to work a bit harder for his milk when he is hungry. Once he has had enough he gets the fuller side until he will not drink any more from that, and then offered the first side again. If I start on fuller side then he will not be interested in empty side for more than 2 sucks as the edge will be taken off his hunger.

If I feed on alternative sides (ie one side only) he'll fed for 5-10 mins then refuse to fed more and then demand more 45 mins later. Not really sure what you are suggesting - am already feeding 2 hourly in afternoon and hourly in evening.

re: 4 month sleep regression - I did think that when he started waking again 3 weeks ago, but I don't think its that because if he is topped up he'll sleep all night. I have searched it and even bought the wonder years book.

I'm not sure whether that's going to work. Switching sides regularly is recommended for increasing supply, feeding from one side is recommended for decreasing supply. Plus giving formula will be impacting on your supply (as I'm sure you know)

So you 'tell' the emptier side to make more milk but at the same time fuller side is being 'told' to make less milk. Add formula and solids into the mix and you will end up with a fast decreasing supply unfortunately.

I switch sides regularly, and feed often - yes to increase supply. I start with the emptier side as that results in more sucking by him, hence stimulating supply.

Truthsweet both sides are emptied at each fed. The emptier side is told to make more and the fuller side is "emptied" by him too. He will keep on sucking until it slows down to a slow trickle and then he refuses to fed more when it gets too slow, esp if he is not really hungry. Not really sure what you are saying?

He only seems full (when he refuses to latch on) after morning feeds. Either way as both sides emptied (to a trickle) (ie he latches on sucks a few times and then falls off) at each fed, both sides generally now just as full as each other at next feed. I am cupping now and both seem the same, so don't think there really is empty or full side.

Also to encourage supply, if he refuses second side at the morning feed I pump the milk to give as evening top up instead of formula as that will stimulate supply.

I know giving formula will impact on supply, although I am happy to feed all day, I am not happy to fed all night. Co-sleeping doesn't work for me (can't get comfortable in the position I need to be in) - really need 2-3 hour stretches at night. I gave the formula as wanted to see why he was waking. As he sleeps through with a formula top up I know he is hungry.

I would like to stick with EBF for another month but not if it involves lots of night wakings.

to be blunt

babies wake at night, it's what they do. if he is hungry he is hungry

if you want to make more milk you need to feed more frequently. agree totally with what truthsweet and SPB have written

the more formula and/or solids you give, the less milk he will want and the less you will make

thisisyesterday - yes i know babies wake at night, don't mind once or even twice in night, but I don't like it when its hourly in the night as its been this week, as that means he is hungry and there isn't enough at each feed to fill him up.

he was sleeping all night from 8-16 weeks on 6 feeds per day, now he is feeding more than he did as a newborn.

i know feeding more often makes more milk, just not enjoying the sleepless nights...

but when he has a growth spurt he HAS to feed more frequently to make you produce more milk

so you either need to go with it and let that happen.

or you give bottles and risk undermining your milk supply.

babies change all the time and doing something one week doesn't mean they will be doing it the next!
i know the horror of sleep deprivation. my ds2 woke fed more or less hourly until he was about 9/10 months old!

anyway, IME if you follow their cues and feed on demand you can't go far wrong and it all evens itself out

you've had good advice here

MumNW, I think that I understand what you do with the feeds - I start with boob 1, move on to boob 2, then start with boob 2 at the next feed as my DD doesn't usually feed on the second boob for long. Is this what you mean?

If you want to keep up the breastfeeding for the next month it is probably best that you ditch the formula for now, as I'm sure you know. My DD isn't wakening as much as your DS, but since 4 months (she is now 23 weeks) my DD has started wakening through the night again. As you know its a huge growth spurt, plus babies are meeting lots of new developmental milestones so they simply need extra food. Formula is likely to keep your DS sleeping for longer as he won't digest it as quickly. Although, plenty of formula fed babies don't sleep for long periods !

Do you have a good night time routine? We have had a great routine from day 1 and I find that it really helps at night.

Just because he slept through for a few weeks, doesn't mean that his changing developmental needs won't necessitate restarting night feeds.

It's normal for them to need a lot of milk at this age, he's doing some amazing things and needs the calories.

Sleeping after a formula top up does not mean he's hungry. It means he finds it harder to digest and so goes longer between feeds. And often they will take a big feed from a bottle as it's just different for them and they don't regulate in the same way. Your body knows how to make milk for your baby. If your child is losing weight, dehydrated, constipated, unhappy etc then I'd question whether there is some kind of supply but if you've ebf this far then I think your body's damn clever and the relationship between your breasts and your baby should be allowed to continue to your baby's requirement. Baby rice and carrot will not contain the calories a hungry, developing baby needs.

I always say it but I'd look at how you can make your life easier instead of trying to change the needs of a tiny child.

Haverina - yes we have good betime routine, bath at 6pm, feed at 6.30pm, and bed at 7pm. Until last week I'd then give him a dream feed at around 10.30pm (he settles quickly afterwards), but now find that he wakes up demanding it already at 9.30pm.

Yes - re: the feeding - I make sure that each side gets to be the first side on alternative feeds to ensure it gets enough stimulation. Sometimes this means starting with less full side. But actually often they both feel the same.

showofhands - i don't mind him feeding in the night once or twice, but really don't want him feeding 2 hourly - as its exhausting for me, and also because it indicates to me he's not really full after a feed.

I have been pumping in the morning after the 7am feed so will use this for bedtime top up, as this is unlikely to reduce my milk supply.

This is kindly meant, but why did you ask? Because several people have reassured you that this amount of feeding is normal in a baby of this age and not actually indicative of hunger.

And if you're going on holiday somewhere very hot then you will find he might feed more as he is thirsty.

I know it's hard, I do. DD fed 2 hourly at least until she was 8 months but in those 8 months, she gained 20lbs in weight, learnt to roll, crawl, sit up, stand, say her first words, giggle, feed herself solids and many, many more things that take enormous amounts of calories.

Asked because my dad is GP, he just came to stay and expressed concern that DS1 who is 20 weeks now feeding more often that when he was newborn, and twice as often as at 10 weeks, esp as he is quite small (between 9th and 25th although has been there for a while).

Both parents, who are very supportive of breastfeeding said he must be hungry as he no longer seems satisfied after a feed, and because a feed now only keeps him going for 1.5-2hours, and because I am not coping well with the lack of sleep.

Also DH said he does not want baby ruining our holiday by screaming all night. From what everyone is saying what he is doing is normal.

MMm... I also don't want baby feeding all night on holiday so I guess I am leaning towards a bedtime bottle because when I come back from holiday am going back to work so he'll need 2 bottles a day by then so its ok if my supply declines a bit.

of course it's exhausting for you. but it isn't just about you is it? it's about him

for whatever reason he is waking more. maybe because of hunger due to big growth spurt, maybe because of developmental changes, maybe for some other reason

you can't change that just because it doesn't suit you. you ahve a small baby to think of here. it's unrealistic and unreasonable IMO to expect HIM to change, when you are the adult

it's going to be like, a couple of months til you start solids etc etc

is 2 months out of your life really that much to ask?

if he is very small and there is concern about his weight, and if you think he is hungry then FEED HIM!!!

sorry, i am not in a great mood this mornin g. but milk is high in calories. it is what a hungry baby needs

instead of tryting to make him sleep through the night think about what you have just said, and think abo0ut what is best for HIM.

oh and he won't scream all night if you feed him will he

I gather from what you've said here, and from previous posts of yours, that you think you don't produce enough milk? Nothing you have said - either in this post or others - shouts at me LOW SUPPLY. I honestly think you're confusing normal breastfed baby behaviour with something wrong.

At 5 months it could be a multitude of things keeping him awake. Growth spurt and sleep regression are the most common - I'm sure ours here was late and lasted weeks! I remember at about 5mo3w DD fed all night - would literally NOT let go of the nipple - and the morning after a tooth appeared. I didn't once doubt my ability to feed and it's THAT confidence in myself and my boobs that keeps us going.

Taking formula and sleeping for a few hours doesn't mean he's hungry, it means he's had a good ol' suck, filled his tiny belly with an artificial substance which he then has to work bloody hard to digest.

The best thing you can do IMO is to try and alter your sleeping arrangement so that you can find a comfortable co-sleeping position (even if it's temporary until the sleepless nights pass).

You seem like a strong, confident woman from what I've seen of your posts in the past few months so PLEASE have faith in your boobs. This too shall pass, this too shall pass, this to shall pass...

Too slow at typing one-handed... re: GP Dad offering his opinion: a) he's talking tosh, b) there are multiple threads here on a regular basis talking about dodgy advice from HCPs!

Also (sorry, 3 posts in a row..) re: feeding like a newborn; DD fed hourly for about 2 months. Wasn't hungry, just stacking her developments up all in one go - sitting, loads of teeth, crawling etc. Now her development has slowed down, her feedings have spaced out.

OP: Just been through what you descibe with my 21 week old DD, very content baby who slept through from a few weeks old EBF.

She then started waking several times through the night totally ravenous so I increased the feeds day & night. After a week she was still doing the same. I knew I had a good supply of milk & really wanted to continue to EBF for full 6 months & then start BLW (as I did with previous LO)

I'll prob get flamed for this but after speaking to HV I've started her on mushed fruit/veg/baby rice & she started to sleep through from the next day. If you feel this is the right thing for your baby then give it a try.

LittleOnePlusBun - yes HV said ok to do this (solids) from 21 weeks. My friend who is nutritionalist said 6 months guidelines from WHO advice, mainly because in 3rd world early solids dangerous due to hygeine. In terms of allergies she said no one is really sure whether early weaning contributes to allergies, but to be prudent avoid anything allergenic before 6 months.

I guess I posted initially to gauge whether to introduce solids now or to introduce bedtime bottle of formula and delay solids. Can see his behaviour totally normal for 5 month old EBF baby.

But so far advice seems to be to continue to get up with him several times a night. Am going to try giving him EBM from a bottle and see how we go with that.

Sorry you are getting questionning instead of support Mum.
If he is past 5 months, yes he can be hungry! Weaning advice for prem/small babies is between 5 months and 7 months.
Does he try to grab your food, can he sit up unaided, has he lost his thrust reflex? If yes, it won't hurt if you try to offer him some vegetables, at least you will know if it is hunger or something else.
DD2 was an hungry baby and no amount of milk on top of what she had at 5 months could have satisfy her. She did wake up for a week for an extra bottle at night untill she had proper food. BTW, she still wakes up but doesn't cry for/need a bottle, I am not sure if your DH has realistic view about the not waking up at night.

There is a difference with a hungry baby (screaming) and a fussy baby. If he is just fussy and BF calm him down, then may be food won't help.

MumNWLondon: just wanted to post because my gut feeling was the advise of other posters. I feel guilty as I know EBF is best but starting mush solids has worked for us.

DD still takes 5 or 6 lovely big BF during day (when not distracted by her hyper big sister!). I know that nothing can compare nutritionally to breast milk but I think of it in terms of 'bulking out' rather than replacing it.

You have done a fantastic job to EBF up to this point, good luck with however you decide to proceed :)

mamaloco - he can grab things, all of which go in his mouth - he chews on rattles and his sleeves all day. he can almost sit up unaided, am guessing another couple of weeks (he will be 5 months on saturday). Not sure about thrust reflex will check with spoon when he wakes up.

MumNWLondon - I can see where you're coming from. Feeding hourly or two hourly during the night and having a full day with baby + older child(ren) to care for is exhausting.

You really have two options: keep EBF on demand as you have been doing so brilliantly up to now, well done to you that is such a fantastic achievement. Or make the move towards formula which you say you will be doing in a month or so any way with the possible benefit that you may get more sleep at night and a more enjoyable holiday for all. I say possible because it's not guaranteed that FF will give you more sleep but it did in my case.

You know, it's totally and completely up to you. I'm not going to make you feel bad or guilty about you addressing your needs as well as the baby's. You could perhaps give a bottle of formula last thing at night and carry on mixed feeding during the day, as you get closer to going back to work you'll have to figure out the best way to make the transfer from EBF to FF anyway.

All the best for you and hope you have a lovely holiday.