Bfing, formula and solids.

[MumNWLondon]

DS2 is coming up to 5 months. So far he has been EBF but over the last 2 days have reluctantly given some formula.

He slept through the night at 8 weeks based on 6 feeds (7,10,1,4,7,10) and is a very calm chilled out baby who only wakes at night in cases of genuine hunger.

At 16 weeks he started waking up in the night, initially it was once a night, then twice a night, and by this week although he goes 3 hours between feeds in the morning (I have loads of milk then) by the afternoon its 2 hourly and by (my) bedtime its hourly.

He will not feed for long, totally refuses to suck for long on an emptyish breast (ie when the milk is slow). Feeds are generally rnage from 5-10 mins of each side. I ALWAYS start on emptier side as that way he is prepared to suck a little longer when he is hungrier at the start of a feed, and I alway offer the 1st side again after the 2nd side etc. Have also been taking more milk plus herbal blend.

So last night he fed at 4pm, 5.30pm, 7pm, 8.30pm, 10pm, 11.30pm. When he woke at 1pm he was very cross as my milk was so slow so I offered him a bottle and he drank 4oz of aptamil and then slept all night.

So what to do now? I will try pumping in the morning and saving this for the evening. But am thinking he either needs solids or a bottle of formula at bedtime? I don't really mind cutting back on the BFing as I am going back to work in a month so he'll have formula in the day, can move things around then so that I go back to Bfing at night etc. Otherwise HV said ok to do some solids eg babyrice/carrots/apples/pears from 5 months.

We are going on holiday next week, it is going to be hot (30c+) DH said he is not keen on baby screaming all night and waking up other DC so need to do something about it.

Is it really the case for me that if I want to EBF for the next month then I am destined to have multiple night wakings and a hungry baby?

I meant to add there is really no benefit to introducing solids before six months as a spoonful of carrots or apple is not going to magically get them to sleep any longer. Milk, either BF or FF is all they need up until the six month point.

Can I just point out in the interests of good information, the guidelines are based on all babies. It's nothing to do with 3rd world countries and hygiene, it's about gut development in the average baby.

The joy of blw is that you follow your baby. If they are sitting up unsupported, have a pincer grasp, have lost the tongue thrust reflex and can pick up, chew and swallow then the theory is that they are ready. Waking more, taking more milk, watching you eat etc are not signs (and generally they put everything in their mouths as they are sensitive and like to explore).

And it remains milk first. The solids are not a replacement but a complement.

There is absolutely no proven link between starting solids and improved sleep habits.

mamaloco, people are being supportive. Sometimes you need to ask further questions to establish what's happening.

Nobody is questioning the OP, mamaloco, just trying to reassure her that her baby's behaviour is normal and not indicative of low supply or a starving baby.

If the OP wants to introduce mush/crap baby rice or formula instead of continuing doing as she's doing then it's her prerogative, the aim of our support (or certainly mine) is to reassure her that it's not necessary.

If they are ready, they do eat far more than a spoonful of food and yes it does make a difference. IME, I agree though that some babies aren't ready at that age and you have to train them to eat spoon by spoon.

5 months is within the guidelines to do safe weaning (wait a week if not sure). You will instantly know if your LO is ready or not. But don't be bullied by your DH or dad if you think he is not ready.

FF won't necessarily help DD2 still fed little and often with formula.

I don't get they are hungery give them food argument at all. After all milk has far more calleries then pured fruit and veg. Think of it like this if you want to go on a diet what do you eat, full fat dairy or fruit? see my point.

My friend who is nutritionalist said 6 months guidelines from WHO advice, mainly because in 3rd world early solids dangerous due to hygeine This sort of advice also drives me mad the WHO guild lines are guide lines for all countries not just developing countires they are there for a reasion.

If weaning signs are there then it's find to wean a little early, but more night waking is no longer classed as a sign to wean. And sorry to be put a dampener on this one but woun't neccaserly make them sleep either, DD didn't start sleeping through untill 13months no matter what we did. (Althoug I never resorted to formula)

Your lucky to have had a nice period of sleeping through early, it's not the norm really for a young baby.

Miggril -

re: the who advice, yes its for all countries but v difficult for WHO to issue different advice for 3rd world countries and in anycase the jury is still out on early weaning - eg current EAT study considering whether late weaning is contributing to allergies.

Am trying to post for support as DS2 waking up lots in the night hungry, and most people seem to think better for both of us to continue to EBF on demand all night rather than try solids or one formula feed alongside Bfing.

Have just read the sleep fairy book - I know she is very pro FF, but she thinks that 4 months a baby only need 4 feeds in 24 hour period (cut down from 5) - we are now up to about 9 or 10.

I repeat, the weaning guidelines are based on the biology of humans, not on geography.

And I've no idea who the sleep fairy is, but I don't think you can say what any baby other than your own 'needs'. They're all so vastly different.

Well done for having ebf till 5m. IMO giving the occasional bottle of formula at 5m will do no harm at all, and having a mum who has had 2-3 hours sleep in a row and isn't also worn out from looking after tired children will be beneficial for your dc. I think you have to balance all these considerations and decide what is best overall.

I know plenty of people who have said a bottle of ff a night helped their dc sleep and plenty who said it didn't. If it helps you then I don't think you should feel guilty at all. You have given your dc a brilliant start in life by ebf up to now, and if you give one bottle of ff a day you are still doing it because you think overall it is in dc's best interests.

Well done, and best of luck:)

well yes, i can see how a formula friendly author would know whether your baby is hungry better than he does

i actually would be extremely worried if a 4 omnth old was only on 4 feeds a day.

there is a reason why so many of us are saying the same thing....

if you wanted support to mixed feed, or support to wean early then ask for that.
but don't ask for advice and then get upset when it isn't what you want to hear

The current EAT study is meaningless until it actually publishes its results. I could create a website suggesting that giving babies whisky is good for their health, and invite mums to trial it for me. Doesn't make it fact though.

If you are after permission/support to give formula or wean early just say so...

I don't need "permission" to give either formula or solids at 21 weeks! If I need "permission" the HV already said it was ok. I can see that perhaps I should wait for solids but formula is apparently suitable from birth.

I was after some ideas/support on how to help me and my baby sleep more - other than formula or solids, but I don't seem to have any and everyone has suggested its normal for him to wake up hungry during the night, even though he slept all night every night from 8 to 16 weeks. It seems that you are all superwomen who can survive on very little sleep. I can't cosleep as whenever I have tried both me and DH have had even less sleep, and I also am only comfortable on my stomach.

I don't think I have low milk supply but I do think its lower in the evening - although this too is probably normal.

Formula is obviously suitable from birth, and if you feel you have no other choice I would personally go for formula over solid food. If it works for you, your baby, you situation, that is all that matters in the long run.

I am not a superwoman but willing to accept the biological norm - to wake - as a comparatively short phase. I, however, have the luxury of no other children to look after and am able to successfully co-sleep.

MumNWLondon - not sure what the right wording is, but if you are looking to "actively manage" or "reduce" night waking and feeding you could try Gina Ford's Contented Baby Book which may or not be useful. I'll get flamed for suggesting it but if you are really seeking advice about how to get more sleep yourself then that is one avenue to try.

It worked very well for us as I was not coping with lack of sleep and constantly run down and ill. You can still BF and follow the routines which is what I and a number of my friends did.

no, we aren't all superwomen. we just do what we can to get by.

in my case that means going to bed early, asking dp to get the other kids up whenever he can so i can get a bit extra sleep, calling in favours from friends so that i can sleep during the day etc etc

there IS no alternative, unless you want to go down the sleep training route.
but as you have said that he is small, that there is concern about his weight gain and that you think he is genuinely hungry then that just seems like a really, really silly thing to do!

babies change soooo quickly, as you've discovered. he is growing and developing and this is a stage that pretty much all babies go through. it doesn't last forever. some people are willing to put up with the sleepless nights in order to exclusively breastfeed, others don't.

giving formula/solids is no guarantee that he will sleep more, and even if he does it's at the expense of getting more calories into him (esp if you choose solids)

how would you feel if you started formula/solids and it made no difference? not an accusatory question btw, just something to think about#?

FanjolinaJolie - I like GF but found that it does not work well with EBF babies esp at this stage. I did it earlier, hence him sleeping all night at 8 weeks, although I should point out I wouldn't leave him to cry (unless he is overtired, and even then only leave for 5 mins).

The GF gaps between feeds are just too long (ie he is hungry by 10am and then by 1pm) and he is too hungry to do the long lunchtime sleep. If I give a top up fed at 11.45am and a top up at 4pm he does the sleeping routine.

GF recognises the problem of lower milk supply in the evening and suggests pumping in the morning to top up, which is what I am trying.

GF's methods are flawed. Babies cluster feed in an evening for a reason, putting in one pumping session in the morning is not going to cut it in comparison.

Boobs are generally floppier (feel 'emptier') in the evening - this is normal - it means babies work a bit harder and get more of the fattier hind milk. This helps them sleep. Are you letting your DS cluster feed as he desires in the evening?

Jemja do you have any links/more info re the fatty hind milk thing? I have recently been told that this is not true which was news to me!

Which part specifically? That milk increases in fat as you go along or about it being sleep inducing?

Sod it, I'll just go with both...

www.internationalbreastfeedingjournal.com/content/4/1/7
'It is known that the fat content of breast milk is higher in hindmilk than in foremilk.'

pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/117/3/e387
'The mean fat content of the milk was significantly related to time of day (P < .001) and was higher (P < .008) during the day and the evening (42.8 ± 9.1 and 43.2 ± 9.1 g/L, respectively)'

www.newscientist.com/article/dn17908-evening-breast-milk-means-a-good-sleep.html
'Mothers who use a breast pump to express milk during the day and then bottle-feed it to their baby at night may be letting themselves in for a sleepless night. Naturally occurring chemicals called nucleotides that have previously been linked to sleepiness only reach their highest concentrations in human breast milk that is expressed at night.'

That last one is particularly relevant to this thread.

jemjabella - DS2 will not cluster feed. He will not feed if the milk is coming out too slowly. he'll suck a few times, sense that the milk is slow and come off the breast. He'll only suck on an emptier breast if he is totally starving. As soon as the edge is off his hunger he'll refuse to suck any more, even if that means he is hungry again in an hours time - hence hourly feeding.

As I said he goes to bed at 7pm, I was waking him at 10pm for a feed, although now he is generally waking himself before then.

Thanks! Very usefull. I had been wondering since it was questioned on another thread. But i don't really know owt, just repeat what i read from the better informed on here.

MumNWLondon - wonder if he's got used to the faster flow of a bottle and is willing to hold out for that... have you tried expressing in the evening rather than the morning?

MoonFaceMama - oh, me too. Well, that & I spent the early stuck-to-sofa-breastfeeding weeks reading tons of studies and articles on BFing. Hoping to do the peer supporter training eventually.

You've had a lot of advice but I just thought I'd add something. My friend was advised to wean her (low weight and early) baby at 17 weeks. She was also advised to cut down BF significantly and cut out night feeds around 6 months.

Her baby's weight dropped off the charts because he was being filled up with lower calorie food (IMO) and didn't have the chance to feed properly.

It sounds like your baby has bottle preference hence the frustration.

Also 4-5 months is a prime time for BF babies to get extremely distracted during day feeds so refuse to feed as rather look around. They then make up for it at night.

The frequent night feeds may not just be hunger - could be for comfort as his brain is making huge mental leaps so hard to sleep. BM has hormones to help baby sleep.

Formula, despite what people think, doesn't have more calories than BM (unless it's the hungry baby stuff). It's just harder to digest so sits in the stomach longer.

There aren't any easy answers and I think there's a risk that if you start on solids and it doesn't help, what do you do next?

Also someone quoted the EAT study - I find it bizarre as I've heard that whilst the weaning guidelines are to start later, so many mothers don't wean later despite the guidelines, that it's impossible to say the increase in allergies is linked to late weaning. I waited until 6 months and I only know two other mums in RL who did the same! The rest started at 17 weeks.

jemjabella - its unlikely he's got used to the faster flow of the bottle as even including ones of EBM he's probably only had about 10 bottles in his whole life!

iggybuff - he does get distracted in the day, I used to feed in front of TV not generally have to go bed and lie down with curtains closed which is annoying.

And yes all my RL friends who had babies at the same time have now weaned them.

If I did start solids I would not want to cut back on the milk. DD's weight actually climbed back up the charts when I weaned but always offered solids after a feed so it didn't replace milk.

It only takes one bottle with some babies though.