Demand Feeding V Structured Routine

[RachD]

Many of the regular posters on mumsnet are pro feeding on demand.

On one side of the very end of the spectrum is 'structured routine - e.g. Gina Ford or EASY - Tracy Hogg.
On the otherside is feeding on demand.

And what never ceases to amaze me is the most of the people who are very pro feeding on demand, can not accept that a set down/ structured routine works for others.

It may not work for them - that is o.k.
But surely you must accept that it does work for many people.

If poster on mn said " read GF, can't do it, crying, hate myself etc etc " - which I have seen - I would say, bin the book, go with the flow, structured routine is not for you.

If a poster says , " We are really struggling, exhausted, no routine," I would say , have you tried routine like GF or EASY.

Some posters are already on GF or EASY.
They are basically happy with a routine, just a glitch.
Maybe one part is not working.

So, I would advice, carry on. Adapt a little.
See how it goes.

But the pro feed on demand people, can not accept that.

They still insist that feeding on demand and let the baby find its own routine, is best.

But the poster is basically happy on the routine.

Its like trying to convert somebody to the totally other end of the spectrum.

Its like trying to make someone who isn't tidy, organised, into an organised person.
Instead of helping them to adjust.

Why do pro demand feeders, not accept that structured routine works for some people ?

we accept, but are entitled to our oppinion!!!
Dont want to convert anyone, do what is best for you and baby!
I think that babies find their own routine in time so that is why I dont 'understand' enforcing something that happens naturally.

RachD, it sounds as if you are referring to a particular thread? Could you post a link so we can see what you mean?

I'm not sure I've ever seen any 'pro-demand-feeder' try to 'convert' anyone on here. I have very strong views on GF, for example, but I would never try and impose them on anyone else. I think we all accept different things work for different people - don't we? Not sure where you're coming from with this, really.

Mumtosomeone - I think there might be one of the major issues - you think that babies find their own routine.

But many babies do not.
Many posters come on mumsnet saying, " we are exhausted, this is not working for us... help."

TV shows. Gina F, Tracy Hogg, even the families that Justine & carrie visit - they phone because they need help. Because they babies are not in a routine.

Snafu - actually I am not refering to any particular post. I really mean this, across the board.

I was on the thread - "Breast and bottle feeeding:Gina Ford routine.Help!"
But I didn't want to refer to that in particular.
That thread reflects many, many other threads.

Ehhhhhh?

• eh?

I don't think that there really is such a divide. When someone posts here, they are generally asking for people's advice and their experience - and you can't really argue with someone's personal experience.
I think some of the misunderstanding stems directly from this "us and them" thing. Most people would agree (and in fact say) that routine is not a Bad Thing as such, just that trying to impose someone else's routine on an individual baby can bring more stress than it solves. Most babies end up on a routine, but I think it is a misunderstanding to think you can find the whole answer in a book - and it can be painful to get hung up on there being a "right" answer. But if you do want a bit of advice, then you can read any book really - GF, Miriam Stoppard, Penelope Leach, talk to your mum, read the MN boards - then pick and choose and find your own way.

Harpsichord - that sounds the most balanced and sensible thing I have ever read on mumsnet.

But there are many pro demand feeders who can't seem to accept that structured routine works for some people.

that makes a nice change - I spent most of last week offfending people... perhaps I should balance the picture by saying I nearly posted GF's name to the "who would you like to disappear" thread yesterday but wasn't in the mood for aggro (for a change).

If all a new mother has read is Gina Ford then she may have no idea that there is another way ...

When someone asks for an opinion or the experiences of others, then that's what they tend to get. It's sometimes only by looking at all of the available options, and seeing what has worked for others, that a poster can work through a problem - it's only when you're armed with all of the facts, and lots of information, that you can pick out what works for you. It's just like reading all of the parenting books - you read all of the advice, then try what you think will work for you.

WWB - of course I must agree with that. People must be shown that their are different options.
I have seen a number of posters who said 'throw the book away. It should be insticntual.'
That really upset me.
I thought it was wrong to say that to someone who was struggling.

Can I really stir it up and tell Harpischord that actually I think there IS a big divide.
An unreconcilable divide. Between people eho are pro-structured routine and those that are not.

No no Lockets, we can add you to the 'middle of the road camp' - someone who is balanced enough to see both sides.

It was really not my intention to create two 'camps'.

stir away be my guest am going to the beach for the day!
last thought though - I think that there might be a difference depending on the time scales - some people (me included) think that some babies are just too tiny to have a strict routine imposed upon them. And others (GF included) say it's never too early.

agree with lockets .. think that comment is terribly astute ol' gal .. I think this thread is 'looking to create two camps'

But how can there be an unreconcilable divide when some people find they use one method for one child and another for a subsequent child? As you say yourself, different methods fit different babies.

Personally, when I was struggling with dd as a newborn and everyone around me was brandishing some book or other, I found it refreshing to come on here and see that there was another way. I was actually looking for someone to tell me to throw the book away IYSWIM?! I didn't have much confidence so I was almost looking for permission to go with my gut feelings.

Honest opinion coming up .. I think set routines from books are damaging to many families IF the baby is not the type to follow a routine .. I think flexibility comes with experience so I honestly believe that what you have is many parents with more than one child trying to reassure first timers that there is another way

RachD, I totally agree with your issue with people giving what could be irrelevant advice to somebody with a particular problem. But I have to say that on the whole, I have never really experienced a divide on MN when it comes to routine (people offer advice based on experience).

I agree with Twiglett that flexibility comes with experience and I am a classic example. DS1 was a slave to the GF routines - I wouldn't go out if it was a nap time and was known in the SE London as "Little Hitler" (joking). True, he slept like a champion and is a happy (if demanding) young man now. DS2 was a totally different story - I fed him whenever he was hungry when he was a tiny baby ? this happened to be 3 or 4 hourly. He slept in our bed for the first 8 weeks of his life and I totally pandered to his every need. In a way I did this for DS1 ? with a happy, newborn who was sleeping well in the day I was able to give DS1 so much more time. My point is, is that I was experienced enough to know that the time would come for routine (I started with bed/bath routine at 6 weeks old with DS2) ? admittedly DS2 is now where near as good a sleeper as DS1, but I live with it because he naps brilliantly during the day (along the lines of GF), eats well and is known to all and sundry as the happiest little boy, a startling contrast to his older brother who was a very needy and demanding baby when awake.

So it's swings and roundabouts me thinks. First time round I needed predictability to get me through the day, second time round I was more confident and could go with the flow.

RachD - I totally agree with you. I only followed Gina F loosely but for us it worked a treat. Her routines are only based on what she has experienced in that most babies (most not all) will naturally fall into these routines anyway. I have lost count on the number of times that people have commented on ds being a happy and contented baby. If you are not naturally a 'routine' person then maybe you prefer to 'go with the flow' and your baby will adapt to this too. I do agree though that there are a lot of people who are anti routine and do not always seem to appreciate that it does work brilliantly for some people.

At my ante natal classes the midwife told us all to throw our GF books in the bin. It almost seems fashionable to knock it and yet most of my friends did follow the routines loosely and found that it worked for them too.

What gets me is when people say "Oh, I have a Gina baby" then when they offer more information about their day, you find that they have adapted the routine, often dramatically. They may have used GF as a starting point, but they really should take more credit for being able to make decisions for themselves about what works for them and their baby!

Cue-feeding works for some people, heavily structured routines work for others. If someone is unhappy with cue-feeding, try a structure. If someone's unhappy with a routine, try relaxing it a bit. Simple! God, I should write a book

I tried GF for dd1 from about 4 months (I think) and it worked fine but she would only then sleep in her cot so we were tied to the house for 2 years between 12-2pm .

Tried it with dd2 and sent myself doolally and threw the book at the wall. She now just fits in, she has to really.

I find it better being a bit more flexible, but whatever works really.

When dd2 was a newborn and I felt like jumping through the window, I liked people telling me to go with the flow, it seemed to reinforce my gut instinct iyswim.

Each to their own.

Actually, I think on mumsnet you get a pretty balanced view - opinions from both sides of the camp, so to speak.

What I find offensive is the numerous pregnancy and baby magazines available, which many first time mothers devour ( I know I did ). They are so biased towards routine, it's impossible if you are an inexperienced new mum or mum to be reading them, to realise that there could possibly be another way.

Rach, I have not read the full thread but it was my perception that we have agreed (in the other thread)that for some routine is a disaster, and for others a God's sent. Besides, I don't believe that having a routine excludes demand feeding, nor even when you are following GF's book. I just wish that GF had been a better writer and made that clear from the beginning rather than hiding it in one of the case studies!

I get concerned when breastfeeding mums are asking for advice on Gina routines because quite often it is clear they are struggling to produce enough milk because they do not allow the baby to increase milk production when needed by feeding more frequently. The advice to express at night instead of giving a breastfeed just increases a new mum's workload IMO. That is when I will suggest ditching the routine for a while.

I do agree that there are mums who need a structure and that scheduled feeds work for them. For breastfeeding mums who produce a lot of milk regardless, that is not a problem. For mums who need the stimulation of feeding, Gina can be the kiss of death and they do not realise the impact scheduled feeds are having on their supply.
Often they are introducing formula when they didn't want to. That is when I again will advise chucking the routine for now.

Mums need to know the pitfalls of scheduled feeds and Gina does not admit to that AFAIK.