Breastfeeding. Have I completely buggered this up – again?

[gaelicsheep]

My DD is now 3 weeks + 2. She has been really difficult to feed from birth ? thrashing her arms about, grabbing at my nipples, looking the wrong way for the breast, hurting like hell with a poor latch etc.

I have tried following all the advice I?ve been given about improving the latch, stopping and starting again etc. but nothing has helped and we?re no further forward. She had a complete nursing strike a week or so ago which led to me expressing for two days solid. After that she was latching worse than ever and my nipples and areolas were so so sore that the only way I dared to feed her was with nipple shields. She is so difficult to feed that I cannot cope with it overnight when I?m shattered so I started giving a formula bottle in the evening so I could express milk for overnight.

I know all the supposed risks of introducing formula/bottles so early, of not feeding overnight and of using nipple shields, but I took a calculated risk knowing full well that the only alternative was to give up or descend into severe depression.

All was going fine, barring the occasional breast refusal episode, until today when she has seemed to really lose interest altogether. I think this has now also highlighted developing problems with my milk supply. There were absolutely no problems with this to start with ? she gained loads of weight from birth ? and I have been expressing 7 ? 9 oz in the evening which I thought was really good. Today though I have only managed to feed her once on each side and come the evening I don?t feel even that full let alone engorged. I only managed to express 3 oz in total this evening.

I really would be grateful for any advice as I do want to crack this if at all possible. However with an increasingly frustrated DH and an active 3 year old there is a limit to how much time I can dedicate to getting it sorted - I can't consider exclusive expressing for example (and I suspect it's already too late for that in any case).

Can milk supply suddenly drop like this under these circumstances after appearing to be OK? Given that we are getting nowhere fast with solving the latching and behaviour problems, realistically how long have I got before this whole thing goes completely to pot, or is it too late already? Does anyone think this is solveable or, given that this will be the second baby where b/f has gone belly up, do some women/baby combinations just not ?do? breastfeeding?

You have been having a stressful time trying the bfing route, and that in itself can reduce the milk supply. This happened to me at 4 1/2 months and there was no alternative but bottles. Having said that Im sure you know that the more your boobs are stimulated the more milk they will make. The best stimulator is the baby, but she's not playing! You can try to increase the expressing and see if that does it. My daughter (now grown up) was given domperidome via her health visitor to increase her milk supply as she was having the same problem as yourself. It is 'off licence' for bfing but worked well.

Hi, thanks for your reply. The problem with increasing expressing is that it is so time consuming and I can only do it when DH is around to look after DS and preferably when DD is asleep. Thankfully he is at home at the moment, but I feel very guilty leaving him to do stuff while I sit there pumping - it's one thing being attached to DD, but being attached to a plastic pump isn't so easy to justify. I'm just not sure I'm that committed. I guess I just want/need a solution whereby DD will just "get it". I've ordered a book on breastfeeding in the hope that will give me some new ideas - Ina May Gaskin's one - but according to Amazon it won't get here til Friday. I'm not sure if I'll last that long!

Incidentally, does anyone think this could be tongue tie again? It was written into my notes that they were to check at birth, but I've since discovered there are types of tongue tie that aren't easily spotted. I had assumed that because her tongue doesn't look like her brother's did, and she can stick it out, that she must be OK, but she does seem to display many of the other signs and she also leaks milk from a bottle very badly. It has taken more than a week of feeding through a nipple shield to make my nipples less sore and red, and it still hurts a fair bit even with the shields - she really is vicious.

Given that the NCT breastfeeding counsellor failed to spot DS's tongue tie, as did every other health professional until we saw a different health visitor at 4 months, I don't have a great deal of faith. Any suggestions as to who to ask about this? Is it worth pursuing, or am I clutching at straws to make myself feel less useless?

There's a really good blog post on tongue tie-give me a min. .

rpc.blogrolling.com/redirect.php?r=9f4b72cf12d9a3f58cf15825e529c8bc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goodenoughm ummy.typepad.com%2F

here

and I will find my favourite blog on BFing...

rpc.blogrolling.com/redirect.php?r=9f4b72cf12d9a3f58cf15825e529c8bc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsplog.vox.com%2 F

I'm sure she won't mind me posting it. again

Thanks Jareth - I can't find the tongue tie bit though. Am I being completely stupid (it is late...)?

hmm.. hang on

goodenoughmummy.typepad.com/good_enough_mum/2010/02/tongue-tie.html

splog.vox.com/library/post/bye-bye-booby-booby-bye-bye.html

Not sure why they didn't work before, sorry.

Obv I can't give you any hands on help with BFing, but these two particular posts (esp the splog one) will help. I hope.

xx
x

Thanks. I've skimmed it - looks interesting - and will read properly tomorrow. The thing that's confusing me here is that DD's weight gain has been really good, which is why I think I'm perhaps clutching at straws. DS, on the other hand, didn't gain well at all until I started expressing and giving formula.

the whole blog is good for BF info, she's a GP and very well informed (I don't think she'll mind me linking)

have a browse...

a friend of mine had to go down the nipple shield route as her DD just wasn't interested, she ended up feeding til about 2.3 yrs.

x

Thanks

Stress doesn't affect your supply and the amount you express isn't an indication of supply. (as you probably know).

I would try again with one of the bf helplines or try finding an nhs lactation consultant/feeding specialist.

Good luck x

Hi, yes I did know both those things but it doesn't stop me worrying! I guess what I really want someone to tell me is how long have I got to sort out our problems before any drop in supply escalates and becomes effectively irreversible? A few days or a few weeks? Yesterday she had three formula feeds which is really crap. She's fed from me this morning twice and has been easier to feed, but it's so up and down it's driving me crazy (quite literally if you ask poor DH).

hi, I was told this morning that thrush and reflux can both cause fussing at feed times, have you ruled out things like that?

I found my breastfeeding book really reassuring, so try and hang on in there at least until you have read it! It might make things easier.

Well the MW and HV have both checked her mouth every time they've seen her so I guess there's no thrush. Reflux I hadn't thought of as there's little possetting and no vomiting, but I guess there's that silent reflux I should look into.

I definitely do want to hang on in there until the book arrives, but everyone makes such a fuss about supplementary feeds clobbering supply I'm not sure if I've even got that long?

I have always had gallons of milk, and didn't even dry up completely between stopping feeding dd and getting pregnant with ds 6 months later. My dd started off on formula and expressed milk, but I managed to get her fully BF by about a month old.

I have reaad tons and tons of stories about women successfully increasing their supply after it dwindling. So you probably have nothing at all to worry about.

Oh, and by the way, there is nothing wrong with being attached to a pump for ages, just consider it 'prepariing her tea', just like you have to spend time preparing meals for everyone else.

Hi again,
Have you considered a supplementary nursing system? This way she can feed on the breast but gets a little extra (either formula or ebm) through a tube that attaches to the breast. It keeps your supply stimulated at the same time.

Really think that seeing someone who can watch you feed and see the latch would be the ideal. You talked about a poor latch and painful nipples so perhaps sorting that out is the first step?

Stick at it though, I'm sure it will get better if you can hang on for a bit.

I sound so negative here, I know - bear with me if you can.

Several people have watched me feed and I've had two types of comment. Either that the latch looks just fine, until I pulled back my breast a little and pointed out that her little mouth was pursed around the nipple despite her chin apparently being well away from her nose. Or that the latch is poor, even though on those occasions she's not actually been hurting me that much. If she really does start munching on the nipple, boy do I know about it and off she comes straight away.

I've then been advised to continue taking her off and re-latching until I achieve a better latch. The problem with this is twofold. Firstly, her suck is so strong that breaking the seal with my finger is almost impossible and it really hurts, more than just leaving her there. Secondly I can only do this once or twice before she just gives up on the whole thing. Waiting for a wide open mouth is fine (except that it occurs once in a blue moon), but then she will be OK for a few sucks and then steadily close her mouth so we're back where we started.

Her latch when she is actually feeding OK isn't really the problem. It's very rarely textbook but it's usually very uncomfortable rather than painful except when I'm very tired. Instead it's the many many occasions where she has bitten me hard while trying to latch/re-latch her that have made me so scared of feeding her without shields.

I really don't think I can solve this with expressing, supplementary feeding, etc. because DH's patience with me is wearing very thin indeed. I am already hell to live with much of the time and I am in real danger of obsessing about this to the point where I can't bond with her or enjoy her - that happened with DS and I don't want to go there again. So in some ways a reason such as tongue tie or reflux would give me a good enough reason to stop beating myself and let it go.

gaelic,

Sorry you're feeling like this. You say you're obsessing about it - but aren't you just really trying hard to making breastfeeding work for you?

It is a shame that DH is 'frustrated' and running out patience as this attitude is clearly not helping you.

I suppose you need to work out the best way forward for you and your dd. Why not just take one day at a time and see how you go? Maybe you could use the nipple shields for a while and just see if that helps?

Oh blimey, I really don't know, I'm no breastfeeding expert. I wonder if Tiktok's around?

Relax a little - maybe there's not even a problem here.

Hi Badger. We're already on nipple shields, there is no way on this earth I dare feed her without.

DH has clinical depression which seems to be getting worse with the new baby. DS (nearly 4) is also going through a very difficult phase just now. He's wonderful with his sister but he is such a handful at the moment - very disobedient and so noisy! DH is at the end of his tether with him, so I feel very guilty when I can't do anything to help because a) I'm feeding/pumping for DD, or b) I've gone to bed because I feel so blardy tired and crap. DH is also really shattered all the time but is taking on the lions shame of the work - getting up in the mornings so I can sleep etc. - and neither of us has any appetite. Things are not very happy chez Sheep at the moment, so you see why I just need feeding to be straightforward and work as it should do.

Incidentally, yesterday DD had 3 bottles of formula, two of expressed milk and a couple of ?breast feeds? (if she took very much - not sure). She was nice and happy and settled and wide awake for most of the day, apart from the unsuccessful feeding attempts.

Today after one bottle of formula this morning I've been trying to just breastfeed her. Cue a very unhappy baby who will not settle for more than 5 minutes at a time, will not be put down, and needs a soother to calm her before she'll settle at all (a necessary evil that we've had to introduce as she needs to comfort suck almost all the time some days and my breasts/sanity will not stand up to it.)

I truly do not know what to do about this. Happy mummy & daddy = happy baby surely. But is a guilty mummy who sees failure looming large really a happy mummy?

Hi again,
yikes, things do sounds tough for you all.

Have you got anyone you can call upon to help out with DS, just to give you a break/some sleep?

Give one of the bf helplines a call maybe and chat through your feelings about all of this. It's so difficult isn't it, but try not to be too hard on yourself.

hi there

You are doing really well if your baby has such s strong suck that its hard to get her off then well bloody done! it will just take some adjustment and you are there!

I dont know where you are living in uk elsewhere but if so its really hot right now and have my baby went on total bf strike during intense heat last year so fine somewhere super cool even airco if necessary. So heat ( not to mention close body heat is an issue sometimes they are just too hot and dont want to feed

and finally if you express a bit an supplement with formula - its asbolutley fine you can easily build it all back up if you want ....not feeding for a day or two is not the end if you dont what it to be

all the best