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Due Sept '08: We're halfway there part 2....

990 replies

LittleConnie · 30/04/2008 14:42

Come on over!

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
dobbins · 15/05/2008 18:11

Hi Jearund - I like the name Douglas- very cute for little one (Douggie- have no idea sorry!) but will be great too when he's older.

We think we're having a girl but have heard scans are unreliable so are holding off a bit on names etc....

eandz · 15/05/2008 18:26

jearund...

i think the nickname looks better on paper as Dougie....just my input. your little Douglas will be soo cute!!!

StarlightMcKenzie · 15/05/2008 18:36

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LeonieD · 15/05/2008 18:54

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StarlightMcKenzie · 15/05/2008 19:18

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carrieon · 15/05/2008 20:00

Crikey lots has happened since I was last on here 24hrs ago!
I believe the 'cut-off' for baby's weightloss after birth is 10%. That is, its expected that they'll lose weight coz of only having colostrum for a few days, but as long as its not more than 10% of the weight its fine. Dd was 7lb9oz and when she was weighed at 5 days she was 6lb 15oz which was fine, and the midwife was more than happy with that.
I had one of those sleepy babies, and set an alarm to make sure she didn't go more than 3 hours without being put on the breast.
When your milk comes in you really know about it, I'm usually a 36c ish and have no cleavage to speak of but oh my goodness did I have big knockers when my milk came in, dh was speechless! I thought it had come in on day 4, but day 5 it really hit, a bit like when you have a contraction and think 'is this the real' thing, but if you're asking that, then its not! This also coincides with the baby-blues where you cry a lot for no apparent reason, so days 4 and 5 are a bad day for visitors in my experience!!

I'd be interested to know what the bf experts here make of this, but a friend of mine had a 10.5lb baby, and he fed and fed and fed and fed for the first few days, I was with her when he fed for an hour and a half, and was still hungry. She was sore and bleeding and clearly there was nothing in there to give her baby, so she gave him some formula from a little sippy cup and he troughed it down was happy. She put him to the breast enough to stimulate her milk and give him colostrum, but filled him up on formula. Once her milk came in it was fine and the formula stopped. I know the 'official' line is that your milk is enough, but I've seen first hand an example where it just wasn't. Its made me think that if I get a large and hungry baby, I was absolutely do the same thing. Is there any other way round this...? I know other people who've used dummies in those first few days, just to give the boobs a break when the baby wants to keep sucking before the milk has come in.

Sorry, insanely long post but prob my only one of the night!

becaroo · 15/05/2008 20:01

Its very pretty starlight

AHLH · 15/05/2008 20:18

meglet by law, your employer has to let you take half an hour for lunch every day you work. You might want to tell them this , but sounds like you've had enough c* to deal with recently. Have you an HR team you can talk to?

kiskideesameanoldmother · 15/05/2008 20:21

Carrieon: in the UK and other western countries they accept that losing 10% is normal. However, research done in West Africa where women co-sleep from birth and basically have no separation from their babies for cultural reasons, it is very rare for babies to have shown any loss of birth weight at 1 week old. In fact, some of them also showed gains. In fact, a friend of mine who gave birth in the 80's and who had fantastic support postnatally in a military hospital in the UK, including staying in for 8 days as was still normal in some places back then I suppose, found that her daughter had actually gained weight by 1 wk old. she said all she did was feed her dd on cue.

This acceptance of 10% loss as normal I think comes from looking at statistics and it has been determined that more than a 10% loss indicates a clinical weightloss problem. We accept this as normal too because of our culturally accepted norm to most women, bfing or not, do not co-sleep, give dummies to let them go longer between feeds so we don't truly feed on demand.

About your friend's big baby, it sounds like he was not latched on properly so he was not transferring milk efficiently. The damaged nipples, extra long feeds and failure to be satisfied (always hungry) are the dead giveaways to this problem. It sounds that by happy coincidence the latch thing sorted itself out for her son to be able to go on to successfully feed.

This is one of the reasons why on days one and 2 someone with proper training ought to observe a whole feed and show a new mum what a good latch looks like and what actually drinking milk at the breast looks like vs stimulation sucks. Both types of sucks are crucial to successful feeding but it is good to have confidence to differentiate what is going on at the breast.

kiskideesameanoldmother · 15/05/2008 20:24

"he was not transferring milk efficiently" rather "he was not transferring colostrum efficiently"

AHLH · 15/05/2008 20:26

meglet, sorry I was wrong. Legal requiremnt is 20 min break for 6 hours work. It's on the Direct Gov website www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029451

AHLH · 15/05/2008 20:30

OMG - after all the recent discussion about cars I was getting a but concerned that my VW Polo would be a bit small (we've bought a Quinny Buzz and it was a bit of a squeeze in the boot). And today, after 4 years of being in job and doing loads of business miles, I was offered a company car! Someone is leaving and I'm getting their Audi A4! OMG! It's massive! and I can have it even though I am going off for a year and want to go back part time! It has 2 and half years lease left on it. Took it for a spin and felt like a little girl driving her dad's car! I'll belive it when I actually have the keys in my hand though.

kiskideesameanoldmother · 15/05/2008 20:32

This was posted on MN a few yrs ago by Mears. She is a midwife in Scotland at a hospital with Unicef's Baby Friendly accreditation.

Of course, this can also be done after giving birth if necessary so it may be a good idea to print it off and stick in your bag. But then again, i am a bit of a mentalist who has been burnt once.

Expressing Colostrum during Pregnancy

Hypoglycaemia Policy
Most babies have no difficulty in adapting to life outside the womb. However, some babies have an increased chance of developing low blood sugar, sometimes called ?hypoglycaemia?. Babies at increased chance of low blood sugar are:
Babies born early or premature ? before 37 completed weeks of pregnancy
Babies, who are lighter in weight than expected for the number of weeks of pregnancy, sometimes called ?small for dates?.
Babies who need extra help to breathe at birth
A baby who is ill
Babies whose mothers had diabetes during pregnancy
Babies whose mothers have had to take medicine for blood pressure (betablockers).

If any of the above applies to you or your baby, then we will encourage you to feed your baby as soon as possible after birth and then to feed often, at least every 3 hours as this will help to prevent low blood sugar in your baby. Your expressed colostrum can also be given to your baby after breastfeeds. Your baby will be carefully monitored and we will check his/her blood sugar regularly.

Is there anything I can do during my pregnancy to prepare for this?
Sometimes as early as 28 weeks of pregnancy, women find that they leak colostrums. The midwives will offer to teach you a very simple technique for expressing colostrum and provide you with sterile equipment for collecting and safely storing it with labels for dating it.

How much colostrum will I be able to express?
Colostrum is present in the breasts from about sixteen weeks of pregnancy onwards. Some women leak colostrum and some don?t, both are normal. Don?t worry if you don?t leak colostrum, it is not an indication that you won?t have enough milk or a reflection on your ability to breastfeed. The amount of colostrum will vary from woman to woman. It can range from a few drops to as much as a teaspoonful or more.

When do I start?
A good time to start would be when you reach 36 weeks of pregnancy.

How often can I express?
A good time to have a first practice is when you are in the bath but you can express as often as you like.

How is it Done? In 4 Easy Steps!

  1. Prepare ? gently stroke or use circular movements with your fingertips to massage your breasts, moving towards the nipple area. (It is not essential but sometimes a back massage can help. Ask someone to stand behind you with a fist either side of your spine, level with your breast and rub their fists up and down, gently and firmly).
  2. Finding the place you need to press ? You need to find where your milk collecting ducts (sinuses) are in your breasts. The best way to do this is by feeling for them. They may feel like peas or peas in a pod or just a change in the texture inside your breasts. They are often found a few centimetres from the end of the nipple or where the darker tissue around the nipple area (areola) meets the skin of the breast.
  3. Removing colostrum ? Place the flat your thumb above and the flat of your first finger below, in a ?C? shape, over the sinuses and gently press and release, building up to a rhythm. A few drops of colostrum may appear at the end of your nipple. When the drips stop move your thumb and finger around your breast to the next set of milk collecting sinuses, repeating this process of rhythmic press and release. You may need to swap hands to express colostrum from the other side of the same breast.
  4. Collecting and storing colostrum ? You will be given a package containing equipment for collecting and storing your colostrum. There will be small sterile syringes with red caps, which you can use to collect the colostrum directly from your nipple. If you chose this way to collect colostrum, carefully replace the red cap and place the syringe at the back of the fridge. Alternatively, you may wish to use the small sterile gallipot for collecting colostrum, if so when finished re-cover the gallipot and place it in the back of the fridge. If you are expressing more than once in a day then use a new sterile syringe or gallipot at each expressing. At the end of the day, you can put all of the collected colostrum into one container (universal container) and store this in the freezer at minus 18 degrees C. When you are coming into hospital to have your baby put all of the collected colostrum into the plastic bags provided, pack the bag(s) with ice. Once at the hospital give the bag(s) to your midwife who will have it stored in the hospital freezer.
carrieon · 15/05/2008 20:52

Kiskidee thank you for responding, I'm finding this really interesting and very much appreciate it! I still struggle though with thinking that a few drops of colostrum (someone said on the previous page about it being drops rather than ounces) can satisfy a large and hungry baby, when several ounces of formula does satisfy, and the milk once it came in, does satisfy.
I'm just trying to collect information as it went so very very wrong for me last time (not helped by deep breast thrush and v.sleepy baby). I can't help thinking that a bit of formula that gives my boobs a break, might extend my bfing career, rather than halt it. I just want to jump straight to the stage where the milk is in, the latch is good, and the baby is satisfied and feeding is a doddle but I know there's lots of hard work between now and then!

Really had better go, we've got dinner guests and dh is making sarky but justified comments about my mumsnet usage...!

LeonieD · 15/05/2008 21:09

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kiskideesameanoldmother · 15/05/2008 21:09

a newborn baby is hungry because his blood sugar has dropped. colostrum is like eating sugar so it takes away hunger but it also gets used quickly so feeding often is vital.

a newborn baby, despite his body size, only has a stomach the size of a shooter marble! 2oz of formula will overwhelm that plus formula is hard to digest so it sits there for ages. Hence they are filled or some would say 'content' for literally hours compared to a bf baby who is receiving colostrum only.

However, why not give formula and have a well deserved break someone may ask you (insert pic of nosy MIL here if you like). Well feeding a baby is also about comfort, security and nurturing. Just 24 hrs before a baby never felt hunger because he was fed 24/7 by a placenta. The security and warmth of the womb is gone. The only place where a newborn baby is evolutionarily and ecologically primed to inhabit is the mother's body. It takes a little while to adjust to the cold bright world outside. Babies who co-sleep and/or experience skin to skin contact cry less, have better thermoregulation of their body temp., and have more predicatble breathing patterns. Hence they experience less stress.

kiskideesameanoldmother · 15/05/2008 21:35

now after this post, I will get me hat and coat....can you tell that i am a geek about breastfeeding?

3 more links WRT to poor feeding in the early days. The one about breast compression is also really good if you don't need to express colostrum but think you have a less than keen feeder.

jaundice

breast compression

increase milk intake

breast compression video excellent video of breast compression. listen to what this doctor says. this baby looks a bit jaundiced which were probably the 'problems' he said he had earlier.

These are the links for breastfeeding lying down:

bfing lying down

bfing lyind down again really good video closeup of a baby drinking at the breast. I don't think you will really need all those pillows. Notice how you and your baby will be side to side. When she finishes, she will want to sleep on her back.

shows how to bf lying down without the sodding pillows benefits of bedsharing

These two are on baby led attachment
biological nurturing
baby led attachment

splishsplosh · 15/05/2008 22:02

Meglet sorry to hear you're having such a rough time, I'm sure your employer are supposed to accomodate you more if you're pg. I remember being told I could take a break whenever I needed to, last time round.

Kiskidee - you said babies will want to sleep on their back when finished... my dd seemed to never want to let go of my boobs when she slept with me. Even now, if I have a nap when she does in the day, if i bring her into bed when she wakes, she'll often fall back asleep, treating me like a dummy... detaching her has never worked, as she is like a heat seeking missile.How do you solve this one, in case the same happens next time?

I know how easy it is to have poor experiences at first with bf. Dd was prem, in scbu, asleep almost constantly cos of medication - total nightmare, and to begin with i couldn't even find anyone to help me operate the hospital expressers.. scbu told me to ask on an ward, they said the bf counsellor would be in a few days later, and couldn't find anyone who knew how it worked - luckily a friend had given birth at the same time.. she had to show me how to use it . I'm so glad I persisted though, and wish i'd known about MN then, and all the support, help and advice available

kiskideesameanoldmother · 15/05/2008 22:24

yes they are little heat seeking missiles. dd is 3 and still like this. I think maybe i said that because once feeding is established, not the newborn growth spurt days, they do tend to sleep on their backs, but right up squashed next to you. amazing how a tiny thing can squirm towards a heatsource.

louiseanne, leonieD imoscarsmum, fyi, if you don't already know this, methyldopa is a betablocker so the document about expressing colostrum may come in useful.

Expressing colostrum is the way that one infamous MNer avoided dreaded 'you must give formula' intervention wielded by well intentioned but misinformed HCP's. She recounted that later on the paediatrician asked privately if she was 'medical' because he had never even heard of expressing colostrum before.

i really really don't want to put off anyone from bfing. Or scare them. I live by the philosophy that knowledge is power. And some of it is scary! I really want every woman who wants to do it, to do so for as long as she wishes. Problems like these do occur and I have seen over the years so many posts on MN where women only wished they had better support. All that heartbreak and regret is touching.

LeonieD · 16/05/2008 08:43

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mustsleep · 16/05/2008 09:28

AHLH great news about the car now you can have as big a buggy as you want

from reading previous posts i must have been quite lucky as neither ds or dd had any weight loss at all after birth, they were both quite greedy babies (still are unfortunately it's for sweeites rather than milk, although dd does still enjoy a bottle)
maybe i am misunderstanding and they don;tlose birth weight if ff

i do wish i had had more support when bf ds, my hv was a bit of a bitch about everything and it's put me off tbh

StarlightMcKenzie · 16/05/2008 09:53

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biglips · 16/05/2008 09:57

im abit zzzz as the baby decided to some karate movements in me between 4 - 5am!!! i wonder if it become a black belt karate !!!

On the Breastfeeding im gonna give it another go and this time get some nipple shields as last time i only managed 2 days but DD was a very hungry baby as soon i gave birth to her she was screaming and screaming, the midwife said that she was hungry! Tell me about it!!

What happens if youre at a relatives/brothers/ dads house and you need to bf your baby? do u go into another room???

biglips · 16/05/2008 09:58

ive decided to use the nipple shields as ive got very sensitive nipples which it doesnt help and had brown crust over them too which it was depressing me

StarlightMcKenzie · 16/05/2008 10:05

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