Mumsnetters do really really well but ……

[retiredlady]

I have tried several times to write down what I am thinking about how we, the Mumsnet readers, support people in their darkest hours. I still don?t think I have sorted out in my own mind exactly what it is that is niggling away at me but I do know that I have spent many hours reading different threads and the sadness of some of them and the compassion and good sense offered have made me cry more than once.

But I still don?t think we are quite getting it right.

To me there doesn?t always seem to be the link that I would have expected to see between the urgency of the cry for help and the number of postings in the thread. Sometimes the balance seems wrong so for example (using a made-up crisis here for obvious reasons) ?two little girls living next door were drowned in a local lake? although most unpleasant for the OP is not nearly as urgent as ?my two little girls were drowned in a local lake?.

One change I would make would be to have Bereavement as one of the chat topics that comes up automatically rather than hiding it away under the more ? sign. Perhaps swap PRS option with Bereavement??

I have also made a paper list of the threads where I think urgent support could make a real difference, perhaps even a life-or-death difference, and if I don?t see anything being posted for perhaps 24 hours I will show the OP that they are not forgotten by posting something myself. Other readers might care to do the same?

Excellent research Cat

Hmm I don't think RL is Extended in disguise, very different posting style

Anyway having wasted too much time reading this thread already, a brief note to the OP:

I am a bereaved parent, my DD died a few months after her first birthday earlier this year and following her death I found the bereavement thread and the special thread for mums. We are not poor tortured souls, we are very unfortunate parents who do not need sympathy. We need understanding from people in the same situation to realise what we are feeling is OK.

I have had the most amazing support on MN since my DD died, it has been life-changing, without it I would have been very isolated in my grief and experiences of this horrific year.

However I would not have valued that support had it come from a 'system' and I am sure everyone is intelligent enough to realise that MN is not the samaritans, it's not counsellors or psychiatric help. If that is what I feel I require I will go to a counsellor, many people on MN do, but what I want and benefit from is the anonymity and casual realness of MN. I can joke on a pregnancy thread or post my real feelings on a bereavement thread and whatever I do, it's fine. I am not doing it for the response that I may or may not get, it is purely me posting anonymously on an internet forum where it's OK to do so. Likewise if I reply to any post, it's because I feel able to or feel that I want to. I'd be useless posting about something I am not experienced in or qualified to advise in.

And I would hate the bereavement forum to be anywhere other than where it is. I feel more able to express myself honestly and with more information that way than having it so visible that anyone can read it or hijack it.

MN works because of its current format, I feel, and I feel a lot of MNers would be alienated and enraged if anyone were to change that, as that is its appeal. To create a virtual duty of care over vulnerable(?) posters would be very dangerous indeed

Anyway 'brief' post over, retiredlady I'm sure perhaps you wish to help others and have life experience driving you to help people in need.

All I would say is that perhaps doing it through actions would be better than preaching policy and your proposals for change on an internet site. And if you continue to post about 'tortured souls' et al, you come over as very patronising and offensive and will alienate and offend people reading your posts, ending with you getting immediately frosty responses. The dynamic here seems, to me, to work perfectly well. If people are in need of urgent help they will know that anonymously posting online is not the way to go about it, and will hopefully, if they actually want help, go to a counsellor or gp or a&e or whatever it is they need.

my first little boy was stillborn over 5 years ago.

I tried various routes for support and none of them really helped

Then a very brave lady came on to mumsnet and told the story of her stillborn dd

From there grew the bereaved mummys thread.. its been going for well over a year now. Its a place where no matter what thought/feeling crosses my mind I can post and know someone will say .. I have felt that too.

Its a little corner of mn where we laugh, cry, remember our little ones. We are all walking the same road and there to pick each other up when we stumble

You cant ask for better suport than that

The other thing RL needs to get over is the need for happy endings.
Pretty often you don't get to the resolution of a poster's story, whether you like it or not.

I haven't read through the whole post so sorry if i repeat anyones post.

retiredlady i dont know how long you've been on mumsnet, i havent been here long myself but after posting about losing my nan, i've recieved some lovely messages, havent recieved hundreds but that absolutely fine, i didnt expect any replies, am grateful people did take the time to post but wouldnt have expected it iygwim.

i personally wouldn't post any advice on threads with which i have had no experience, i personally feel that if i gave advice on how to deal with the loss of a child for example, it wouldnt be the right thing to say, i wouldnt know how to advise how to deal with something that i (thank god) havent experianced, doesnt mean i feel any less sorry for what people are going through, doesnt mean i dont care, i just think my silence is better then some half assed remark on a subject i know nothing about.

post something if you wish, post a message on every post on bereavemnt, but dont do it if you dont mean it. if your only doing it because youve seen nothing in 24 hours, its not because you want to, if you did youd do it immediatly, not because you feel sorry for those "poor tourtered souls "

i dont want a post from you on any threads i put up, regardless of anything being or not being posted in 24 hours

by the way, we're not "poor tourtured souls" we're people, we're people who are all grieving over someone, we're people that need to talk, just let things out, we dont need to be put on some flipping list just for some half assed reply of something you may know nothing about.

i am so very grateful of the suppor i have recieved on here, its helped me see clearly and helped me start to deal with things. without mumsnet i wouldnt have been able to deal with it

trinityrhinos thread last week is a show of mumsnet at its best, dont know if you saw it, or posted but the comments on there are wonderful.

milk (sorry...milk the poor tourtured soul with no activity for 24 hours...ffs!)

mumsnet bereavment thread posters- you advice is always greatly recieved and is good advice...your all fantasic!

Is the OP suggesting we have some sort of "triage" on the posts and if so, who does the assessing?

SOme of the most "nnedy" may not post on Breavement - their cry for help may come in Chat, Relationships, Lone Parents, anywhere really.

It's like suggesting that whenever a group of friends meets up, a trained counsellor assesses who "needs" to be listened to most....

It's a findamental misnuderstanding of how discussion boards on the Internet work.

I can understand how somebody might say ?I don?t agree with you because? or ?I can understand why you might think that but? but I cannot understand why some posters to this thread feel compelled to indulge in a feeding frenzy when somebody has a viewpoint different to their own. I would query just how friendly and supportive the group really is to minority views.

Read the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

If you read a bereavement posting but ?pass by on the other side? how exactly do your actions differ from those of the priest or the temple assistant?

Yes of course you can justify your actions just as milknosugarplease did when she said, ?I just think my silence is better then some half assed remark on a subject I know nothing about.? The Good Samaritan didn?t say ?Well I?m not a doctor!? and in any case there are clearly not just two alternatives available since saying something supportive but not ?condition specific? is a perfectly sensible third option.

Crumpette wrote - ?To create a virtual duty of care over vulnerable(?) posters would be very dangerous indeed?

I am not suggesting this. Its clear that there are people on Mumsnet with the motivation, skill and empathy to offer lots of help. I was wondering aloud why some problems receive high levels of quality support when other don?t, why this should be the case, does it matter and is there anything that might be done about it. There is nothing to be gained by you attacking a viewpoint I don?t hold.

OH dear...

Retired Lady - it's an internet forum, not an official counselling service.

It's VERY insulting to use the good samaritan as an example, and I speak as a christian. THis is NOT the same thing at all.

Get this into your head - NOBODY IS OBLIGED TO POST ON HERE. Also - while this place has given good support, people are advised to get real life help as well.

You are right, Katisha.

I found the "good Samaritan" analogy quite offensive - as a Christian. Not sure why.

This is Mumsnet. Its t'interweb! Its not someone bleeding to death at the side of the road and if it was, then we would advise calling 999 or NHS24.

RL - Mumsnet is bloody Brilliant!! It really, really does not need you coming along, trying to improve it cos you have nothing better to do.

Go and take some of the advice on the thread you started about being bored and lonely. Because the stuff you are posting here is patronising, unhelpful and really getting me some people cross.

You know what? If I heard in 10 minutes that dh had dropped down dead at work, I would know that MN would be a place to come for real help and support. I certainly would not want a message from you, as part of a wee list on a bit of paper, cos I hadn't heard from anyone for a while.

Just use your concerns to help people then. If you have the time to trawl and take note of the bereavement threads that may need bumping/answering, then do that!!

I doubt very very much that posters on here are deliberately not empathising equally!!!

This forum is huge.

"I was wondering aloud why some problems receive high levels of quality support when other don?t"

I think this tends to be down to the time of day posted, quiet times and a thread can unfortunately be overlooked.

"why this should be the case, does it matter"

Tends to depend on the poster. If they're a regular they'll know just to keep bumping or trying again. If not, they may take it as a further sense of abandonment or personally.

"and is there anything that might be done about it."

Yes, I think there are plenty of things that could be done but all have their downsides. For example, MNHQ could employ some full time counsellors to monitor the board and respond quickly to these posts. However MN is not a counselling board, and doing something like this would change it fundamentally. What MN does do is have text at the top of every thread in these "sensitive" topics which mentions that this is a sometimes slow moving talk board and signposts people to more appropriate support contacts. If you are asking what we as a community can do, then you are going about it in the wrong way. Changing people's behaviour can't be done in this directive fashion apart from in particular circumstances (which this isn't). My own concern would be that any 'system' isn't failsafe, and that someone being let down when they should be guaranteed help would be much more damaging than the current situation.

Retired Lady, well done for coming back calmly after all the criticism you've received. You were only trying to help and it is an interesting point you raise that often the most popular threads are the "least urgent". But that's the nature of an internet forum; many posters just come on for fun.
Relating back to your "is that all there is ?" post, I have two suggestions to liven your life up, firstly do a adult education course, in something where you are a complete beginner, and secondly, start gardening, even if only a few pot plants.

Retired Lady, have you seen the 802 post thread in response to news of TrinityRhino's DH? That is MN in action.

There are threads or posts about her devastating news in Antenatal, Good Houskeeping, General Health, Bereavement, Philosophy/Spirituality/Religion, Post-natal, chat, Pregnancy.

There is a 382 post thread organising support for this well-loved MNer.

It is because she has been around long enough, and opened herself up enough that posters feel that they know her. So they know how much she gives, how much she loves, how much she needs our support.

By suggesting a 'team approach' to sensitive threads, it is merely diluting the powerful sentiments that come through genuineness.

I don't think MN needs to change in any tangible way. Over time, good things get better, and bad things fade.

Puzzlerocks used to bump threads that hadn't been answered, and IIRC, MNHQ suggested that it might not be the best approach because it just clogged up active convos.

By "is that all there is ?" post, I meant the other thread you started which some-one linked to during this thread.

Oh my. Where to start.

I have tried to give support and hope that my words and actions have help a few.

I have received - and still do receive - a massive amount of support from friends on MN.

We are not broken - do not attempt to fix us. Just leave us alone and quit the patronising please.

RL - you wrote this on another thread:

"I'm sorry if what I wrote came across as meaning that I thought people who had received help from Mumsnet readers but who then "went quiet" were being ungrateful or thoughtless.

Some of the posts I have read have been deeply troubling to me, indeed there are a couple of current threads where the writer is clearly in deep despair. I simply don't know if I have the moral or spiritual strength to help these people without knowing how it worked out.

This is my weakness not theirs!"

I hate to say this, as obviously your intentions are good, but I think it is one thing to want to help people, and another to not want to help because you don't know the outcome. That makes it about you, not them. And therefore a little insincere IYSWIM? It is like feeding off other people's misfortunes to make you feel better about yourself.

I'm not a great one for advice (there are some excellent posters on MN) but that advice is freely given with no expectation an emotional "return". A thank you is always appreciated. But that is it.

I'm sorry but you still haven't explained your motives for wanting to do this.

Sadly I've had reason to post about bereavement on MN last week when my friend's DH died. I stuck it in chat as I want it gone at some point. The information I received has been more helpful than I can put into words, from posters who have been through what their DD is going through, about the financial aspects and all round general support, truly fantastic and has had a big impact how I have approached things. I might need it later in the week and beyond to help my friend in the time after the funeral. I know that if I do need to I will get support.

Until a few years ago I hadn't experienced much loss and would generally not post on bereavement threads apart to offer my condolences. I don't think it is something that can be "got right", each situation is different and though I appreciated that RL has started this thread with good intentions, it is something that does what it needs to do as it is most of the time. There may be exceptions but sadly I think that is how things are.

Retiredlady - I found your samaritans post a little odd, if not actually borderline offensive.

There are a number of things wrong with your analogy, but the main thing that strikes me is that the Samaritan stopped to help. He didn't stride on to the next village, get on a soap box and lecture the villagers on how they should better organise their wayfare assistance programme.

My point being, if you want to help, then just do it. Stop lecturing other people and just pitch in. THEN, when you've been here a while, understand how things work, and people respect you as a poster, perhaps your opinion will carry more weight.

I lurk in this section, when somebody posts about circumstances that are close to my own I post about what helped me, otherwise I keep quiet. An action the OP might like to consider - though I didn't find this thread quite as offensive as her other one.

[round of applause for youngvisiter]

amother Christian here very at the Good Samaritan remark.

Can I ask those of you who have been unfortunate to have to post on the bereavement topic for themselves, are you offended if you know that people have read and not posted???

and also you do realise that the "updates" may well not happen on the initial thread? You could be busying bumping the initial thread that someone started, meanwhile they've started another one or two with updates on.

Alwayslooking - not in the slightest offended if people don't post. Talking to people in a similar position to me (loss of partner) one of the most offensive/upsetting things people say (though I have not seen it on MN) is "oh I know just how you feel - my cat died the other week".

I do not post on the loss of a child/parent/sibling threads. I have not been through this so beyond the grief and anguish of the newly bereaved I cannot truly understand the emotions that such circumstances would raise. However, the strength of MN is that there are people who have been through this and can understand and can share how they got through it.

These are the people that helped me and whom I communcate with regularly outside of MN [waves to OJ and ES amongst other].