In memory of my beloved Fraser and all our children.Little buds sown on earth to bloom in heaven

[frasersmummy]

A new haven for us all to say exactly what is in our heart or on our minds knowing that everyone understands and wont judge

Oh Lavendes 3 MORE SLEEPS.....We had an email from the owners wife tonight.....she has a son, Stegoris, who is a few months younger than Tom. He went to High school last September and is learning to speak English. He and Tom have always been good pals but last year they were inseparable. She says 'Hello my dear friend, Stegoris is sitting on the front steps of the hotel - he already wait for Thomas!!!'

It keeps overwhelming me that we are going 'home' in just a few hours.

I think we are very lucky - we have found a small piece of paradise on this Earth. xxxxx

Just thought! Takis and Tasos (the two brothers who own the hotel - they are in their 40's) had a younger brother who died in his 20's from lukemia. Also our friend, and favourite barman - Nikos had a brother who was killed in a road accident about 3 years ago. Maybe we have a bond? They dont discuss it with me but they know about my sons and I know about their brothers. When the beer takes over, usually around 2am we discuss our losses - they speak in Greek and I speak in English - BUT we know each others pain.

How weird to travel 2,500 miles to be comfortable in my own skin...they dont judge the fact that I am very overweight, they dont judge anything about us. We have a very comfortable, loving friendship. Oh I cant wait to see my friends again xxx

shabs sounds like you have a bond with those people, It is great that you are going somewhere where you can have a lovely time and be with friends, Hope you have a wonderful time, you deserve it and hope your Tom has fun with his friend.

ENJOY. I will raise a glass to you and yours at the weekend. xx

shabs just realised I have a glass of wine now and am raising it as we speak!!!!

'Cheers', 'Yamass (Greek for cheers) my friend.

xxxx

Morning girls xx

Morning all xx

Caz I am a "church-shopper" and have been to 3 new churches since Catherine died. I don't know if my wanderings will be of any use to you (or anyone else) ... but here goes (sorry - long).

We used to regularly attend our local Church of Scotland - but I've found it hard since Catherine died.

Partly, I think that's because my expectations were high about how Christian people who knew us well would deal with our loss, and partly because the Minister/Church of Scotland takes the view that the church must move on in its grief and does not mention the dead after the burial. I have to say, people were really good around organising the funeral - Minister came the night Catherine died, met to discuss the funeral etc., the refreshment team organised coffees and tea after the service etc.

However, as soon as she was buried, that was it. We were especially hurt at the end of the school year when they awarded books for Sunday School. My daughter attended 2 terms in that year, but the Minister refused to mention her - even though the lady who had bought the books had bought some flowers for her - she was told to go and leave them on the grave quietly.

I think the other thing is I also found the congregation very cold - people wouldn't mention Catherine - instead asking about our holiday plans, garden, etc. I know everyone does this - but I suppose I expected better. In the end, I just thought - I go there, and watch the altar where my daughter was christened, took part in the nativity play and then where her coffin stood - and weep. And no one seems to care.

The Church has a bereavement programme - 2 months after the funeral they contact you and a nice inoffensive little old lady comes and talks to you for an hour. A month a later she repeats the process. I think I've said before - I don't mind her coming - but I feel processed, rather than loved.

So off I went searching. I had one try with the church in the neighbouring village next to Catherine's grave. I could see the grave from my seat, the Minister talked about death - and read from the bible about the widow losing her only child. I wept throughout. No one spoke to me. I didn't go back.

Next up, I tried a local happy, clappy evangelical church - still Church of Scotland. I've been a few times now. It's quite close to us, and very child friendly. Walked in and met lots of people I knew - we used to get about - so not everyone knew Catherine had died - that's where I was yesterday. They are very JESUS LOVES YOU - they have a band - and everyone there is hugely warm and concerned. I was quite touching to come home one day and find cakes on the doorstep. Yesterday I was walking home and a car pulled up beside me. I thought it would be someone asking for directions - but it was the Minister - saying he had noticed me at church, and hadn't had the chance to talk to me - and did I want a lift?

I quite like that - and a Church where no one spoke to me would feel very lonely to me - but DH hates it with a passion - he likes formality.

So the final church is the one DH favours. It's in the centre of town and an Epispocal (Sp?) Church - very high - all robes, organ and incense. DH has started going to morning prayers, and the Priest is lending him books. DH wasn't very churchy before, so I was a bit surprised - but it does seem to comfort him. Not sure I'm a fan of the formality - but they do pray for the dead, and I found it very comforting to go last Friday, and hear Catherine mentioned on the 4 months mark. Can't really explain why it was comforting to hear that - it was such a simple thing, but it was...

I'm not sure where I'll settle - or whether I'll go back to my local church, where I knew a lot of people.

Not sure if that helps or not.

Im a huge fan of 'Happy Clappy' to be honest Sassy.

The way your church deals with death is, in my eyes, so very weird. I dont get it. We attended my Great Nieces' christening a few weeks ago at a Catholic church. The Priest said 'Anyone amongst us who is not baptised will not enter the kingdom of heaven when they die.' It took every last ounce of strength to not stand up and shout what an arse he was. I looked at Danny, Thomas and Lewis and thought 'None of them have been christened' - Danny looked at me with a big grin on his face and his eyes wide as saucers - he just silently shook his head and whispered 'Dont you dare Mum!!'

My friend, Nikos, who lost his brother a few years ago also rarely talks about death. It is very much discouraged in the Greek Orthodox religion. They mark the persons death at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months with a Mass. I went to the 3 month one with Nikos and his family and everybody, including the 'Boss' with the funny pointy hat on totally and utterly ignored the fact that Maria (Nikos' Mum) wailed and screamed outside the church. I went to go to her but Nikos stopped me. She was screaming 'Kostas, Kostas' but people just walked past her. I just stood there with tears streaming down my face. If I see her this year I will (somehow) explain how I wanted to comfort her.

In my mind people who ignore grief like that are a disgrace - its them who will be going to Hell.

Oh....and breathe - see what you started Sassy

Hello,
I lost my baby Griffin 8 weeks ago today. I really just wanted to introduce myself. I found this thread a few days ago and have been lurking but wanted to say hi. You seem like a nice bunch of people.

It's been a really tough time. My Grandfather has terminal cancer and my Gran is also battling the disease. (both on my Dad's side) My Dad lives in Australia and came over after the birth but left 3 weeks ago, just before my Gran's operation, only to say he is coming back next week because my Grandad is worse than he thought. I told him before he left that he shouldn't go because we all needed him and that Grandad was iller than he thought but he did anyway. He works freelance over the internet so could (and did) work from here so there was really no need for him to go back except that his wife would have wanted him back.

but the step mother is a whole other issue. Not once has she picked up the phone to speak to me since we lost Griffin or my Grandparents. Not a text, email or even facebook message.

To make things worse my MIL is a complete cow I know this is a common complaint but she is really a step beyond. After the birth she came to visit us and was horrible. When we told her about the funeral arrangements she looked very unhappy and said to my DH that 'You had better be very sure that you have made the right decision or you will regret it for the rest of your life' She hadn't offered an alternative, just didn't like what we had decided. She was awful the entire time. My mum was down too and MIL kept trying to get one over on her. It was just extra stress that we didnt need. Then at the grave side (after being told that we only wanted our flowers in the grave and nothing else) she brought out an Asda poly bag with a rose in it to throw in with the coffin. I mean the rose was bad enough as it was against our wishes but in a poly bag was just offensive.

She then went back to the grave with her SIL and neice and put more flowers and a Roland Rat on the grave.

I don't think my DH will ever be able to forgive her so not only has he lost his son but also in his mind, his mother, Aunt and Cousin.

Sorry this turned into a bit of a rant. I can't really talk to him about it (I mean the MIL bit) cos he's not ready to and talking Mum about it just sets her off in a rant (it was also her parents' grave so she's even more angry about it than me)

Happy Monday.

Sarabeth - Im so very sorry for the loss of your precious little man - what happened? If you dont feel ready to tell us yet - dont worry xxxx

Im also so sorry about the family problems and illness. It sounds like you are having a very hard time of things.

We are all here to support each other, to prop each other up and help each other. Im glad you have found us but wish you didn't have to xxxx

Hi Sarabeth. I'm so sorry that Griffin died, glad that you've found us here, but sorry that you have to.

I watched a film on Staurday and Sunday night - it was called 'I Know My First Name Is Steven' about a little boys who was abducted when he was seven and is then reunited with his parents when he was fourteen. At the end it said that he'd been killed in a car cash when he was just 24. And it got me to thinking, those parents lost their son twice, and how i can't even begin to imagine how they feel. Not knowing for all those years if their son was alive or dead, then finding him and slowly rebuilding their lives together only for him to be killed...taken away for good. So unfair.

Sorry, i'm wittering.

Hi Sarabeth - come in, put your feet up. I'm sorry to hear about Griffin.

Angry is my middle name at the moment, and as far as I can figure, being cross is par for the course. Death seems to bring out the worse in people, when you think it should bring out the best.

Dee thanks for that... that is bloody horrible. It reminds me of this charming friend of a friend, who on being told of a string of tragedies invovling a child bereavement said "well, tradegy attracts tradegy". WTF? Cow!

Oh Dee I have watched that film - its very sad.

Oh - too right it is sad... wiki-ed the story, and his older brother has been sentenced to death for murdering 4 women. The poor parents - 2 sons, 1 on death row, and the other died in a motorcyle crash.

I see Steven also left a wife and 2 DCs - and the wee 5 year old he saved died this year (aged 35) also leaving a wife and 2 DCs.

Horrible.. horrible... horrible.

Lets do that - You are safe, all be fine chant.....

Hi Sarabeth, welcome to the thread, I'm so sorry to hear about your baby and I hope you find some comfort here.

I went to the doctor this morning as I need to have my blood levels checked as I lost a lot of blood during the birth. It was the same doctor who said he could hear Malachy's heartbeat when he had already died. Today he asked me if we were trying again, WTF! It has been 9 weeks ! I then saw the computer screen where he had written post miscarriage. Malachy wasn't a miscarriage and thus really hurt me. I didn't say anything but cried as soon as I got home (the doctor is across the road).

We've decided to go to the hospital tomorrow even though it's the due date. I want to know why my baby died and in a strange way it seems fitting that I should be told then. We have discussed trying again in the future but if it was something genetic then it mightn't be that simple.

Oh he also said to keep taking the iron tablets for another 3 months and to double the dose. I asked ( hypothetically) if fell pregnant in that time should I stop taking the iron as it could be dangerous? He replied 'good point' and then looked at the computer screen and said 'you're 31, leave it a bit til your iron levels are ready. Did you conceive easily last time?'. I'm sure he's not trying to be insensitive but I was somewhat annoyed by his manner. He also said he didn't know about the iron either. Btw this is the only surgery in the country to get 100% patient satisfaction last year !!!!

Minione Sorry you had a horrible time. I know some women do not want to try again immediately - I met a nice lady who had a stillbrith at 40 weeks, and was pg again within 3 months of the birth. It was very insensitive and inaccurate to describe your son as a miscarriage

Be gentle with yourself - hopefully the hosp appointment will be more sensitive - at least they are probably more used to dealing with bereaved mums - and will hopefully provide some reassurance.

Thanks sassy, I just found his attitude a bit weird. Its not so much him asking if I was trying again,( I think in a few months we might feel ready) but we haven't been fir the postmortem results yet and i couldn't bear going through this again.

I'm really worried about tomorrow. I want to know why malachy died but I'm scared that it will be something that could happen again. I know I can conceive easily but what if they tell us that there is a high chance of this happening again?

We went to see dh's best man and his wife on Saturday, they've been ttc for 7 years and recently had ivf treatment which was unsuccessful. Even though I've lost Malachy I felt so sad fir them as at least I've been pregnant and given birth.

I'm not sure if that came across how I meant it to, but they would be fantastic parents and I guess up until losing malachy I never really thought about their pain and anguish. Don't get me wrong I knew it was hard for them and felt sorry for them but I guess I now understand their pain.

Griffin was stillborn at 36+3 about a week before he was due to be induced because I had obstetric cholostasis. When he was born the cord was tight around his neck so we don't know if this was the cause or if the cholostasis or something else was to blame. The hospital have said it will be at least another month until the post mortem comes through so I just have to wait and find out.

I went into labour on the Monday lunchtime, when I got to the hospital they told me he had no heartbeat. He was born at 2.25 on the Tuesday morning.

We lived in London until this happened and have now moved to Scotland. It's meant to be temporary as DH can only get a 3 month transfer with work but at the moment I don't want to go back to London ever.

Minione - I hope tomorrow's appointment gives you the answers you need.

Thankyou Sarabeth, how are you doing today?

I feel really strange and anxious. Tomorrow was a date so etched in my mind, I wish my baby had lived and that we were the family we were supposed to be. I feel so empty and pissed off. We're going to buy a nice plant tomorrow and take it to Malachy's grave after we've been to the hospital but this shouldn't have happened, I shouldn't have to be buying things for a grave. It's so unfair.

I am doing ok today. Better than I have been, almost optimistic.

Poor you. How early was Malachy born? My due date was hard but it was less than a month after he died so it was just a little blip of worseness rather than revisiting the whole thing.

Griffin is buried quite far away and neither of us drive so we have not been back to the grave since the funeral. One of the reasons we chose there is so that we couldn't go every day because I knew I would and for me it wouldn't help. He is buried with my Grandparents, so I feel that he is looked after.

Again I hope tomorrow goes as well as it can do and I'll pray that it was a freak occurrence rather than a genetic issue.

Minione - wishing you strength for tomorrow.

Sarabeth - there are quite a few posters in Scotland - I'm in Edinburgh.

Catherine's friend turned 4 today. I took some paintings drawn by the b'day girl down to her grave. She should have been at the party, as she has been every other year. Just not fair, is it?

Sarabeth - Malachy was born at 30 + 4 weeks on Saturday the 12th June. We found out he had died on the Wednesday but I had felt little movement from the monday morning. I posted the full story previously but basically a heart problem had been identified and downs had been suspected but the amnio ruled this out. However, they suspect it could be a different syndrome ( but not Edwards or Patau as these were also ruled out). I hope too that it isn't genetic, I'm not religious but if I was I would pray too. I guess I'll just hope and wish.

Thanks Sassy. It must be so hard to see Catherine's friends having birthdays etc. I can't even begin to imagine what you have gone through and whatever I say sounds trite , there are no words. You're right, it isn't fair.