I can't bear the thought of being without my children but I seriously fear for their future

[FabIsGoingToGetFit]

They are 9 and under and I love them so much they are the reason I am still alive tbh. But we have no control over them. They used to behave for DH and not me, now they will yell and scream at both of us just as much. Today the 6 year old weed on her bedroom floor because she was put there to calm down having hit her younger brother and bent my fingers back.

I do not accept that all of what they do is normal childhood behaviour I believe this more than that. They don't care if toys are broken, they draw on door handles, walls and the table. They leave things where they fall. The would rather have no toys to play with than put a few books away, they scream and shout in our faces and slam doors. They will physically hurt each other and will hit and kick us.

If it is normal childhood behaviour (and I know no one else like this nor did I have any problems with the many children I nannied for.) how on earth can we get some order in our lives as seriously I can not take any more.

I know I am doing a crap job but I am trying so please no flaming as no one can do it more than I am to myself.

We have no control over them at all.

Do you have anyone helping you at all?

Start addressing their behaviour step by step....it is too overwhelming to try and fix everything at once.

You need to take them to your GP if you believe their behaviour has a medical reason but to me it sounds like they get a lot of attention for being naughty.

Blardy hell..I didn't realise it was so serious last night

What about trying to get someone else in to help for a bit?
Even asking some family or a mate to give you both a hand could make a difference
Or ask if they could honestly give you some support or backup? Sometime a differnt voice makes all the diff to the children?

Maybe you are just knackered and all your patience has been used up so that everything now is a mountain and not a molehill.
I know that this happens to me.

I'm sorry to pummel out shit platitudes but it will get better especially if you have a chance to recharge once in a while

How do you discipline them Fab? What's usually your/dh's response to their behaviour? Is there anything they respond to? Are they angry children, do you think? Is there anything which has happened to disturb them?

Sorry you're having such a terrible time

for me, i thikn the approach has to be consistency, backed up by each other and a united front

also, letting go of the smaller stuff so when the big stuff kicks off you have somewhere to go

if you cannot cope anymore, and this is a recurring theme, you need to draft in outside help

if they behave at school, and thre is no reason to thikn there are underlying reasons, then you and DH have to take back the reins

there are parenting courses available via agenies like surestart

I really feel for you. I have read some of your threads and you sound like you are really having a tough time at the moment. I have times like these too. Some days I feel like DD1 is destroying me. She is only 5 but sounds like yours in that punishing her has no effect on her behaviour infact it makes her worse.
Do they respond to rewards? Mine does. Do they have problems at school or is it just at home? Mine is also defiant at school. I am meeting the teacher and senco at me request next week. Maybe you need some outside help. Have you been in contact with your GP or school nurse? That is my next channel for DD1 if the teacher and senco can't help. I have also asked for an edpsyc referal which they refused before christmas but have now agreed to.
I'm sorry I can't be much help but you are not alone.

The children stayed at my inlaws from Sunday until Tuesday so DH and I had a lovely day on Monday having lunch out and buying some books. I then spent 7 hours cleaning their bedrooms on Tuesday and then picked them up at 3 and took them school shoe shopping. So, our inlaws can and do help but they have busy lives too. No one else to help.

Discipline is either sending them to it on the step or cool down in their rooms but lately Dh has been making them do lines. DS1 wrote a sorry note yesterday and another today and hasn't been too bad. DD is the worst today.

I don't think they are angry other than normal faces when they feel badly done too.

DH has just bagged up DS2's kitchen to take to the tip because is is broken. They just do not care.

There was a similar case on supernanny that I watched the other night

they cleaned up the house, took away loads of toys, wrote out rules and any rules which were broken toys were confiscated in those clear plastic boxes

then they all played a lot of family games together to bring them together as a unit

consistency was key too with punishments

good luck

Fine at school and a bit better with in laws.

We try and let as much go as we can but it is getting too much when people are looking at them in the shop and then looking at me. I can't win. If I ignore they look, if I shout they look. I just want someone to help me.

Do they misbehave for your inlaws? Or at school? Or is it just at home?

If they behave like that all of the time, then I think it would be worth seeing a GP for a referral for an assessment for ADHD etc.

If they are only doing it at home then it would look as though they are doing it to get a reaction from you.

Have you read this book? I know it sounds a bit naff, but it helped me to think about why I was getting so worked up by my DC. And I found that if I didn't get worked up (ie respond) they got bored of trying to wind me up.

Sorry, cross post...

Ignore what anyone else thinks, your children and your parenting are your business.

If they can't behave when they are out, then I wouldn't take them out. If they can't look after their toys then take them away. If they are 9 and 6 they are old enough to realise the consequences of their actions, and will soon get bored of sitting in a house devoid of toys. Don't shout, don't show that you are stressed, just let them see that when they misbehave there will be consequences. If one of them is being good then heap praise on them, and give them a treat. Try to draw attention to the good and not the bad.

If they are fine in school then they are obviously capable of behaving.

I take 100% responsibility for their behaviour. Just trying to fix it years too late.

It's not too late fab. Have you read 'the explosive child?' It's really good.

it is up to DH too, you are both the parents.

you have struggled for a long time, and it might be the time to ask for more help

some of what you describe is normal. but writing on walls, destruction etc is outside what i persnally would consider usual for above toddler age children.. it sounds in part like some attention seeking..

plenty of positive reinforcement, and making fun stuff part of every day, rather than just a reward

If only there was something to praise..

Going now to prepare tea.

Thanks.

I think you have to start really really small. I do not have children of that age, so I am writing this as an idea, not as any form of authority.

Chose ONE, just ONE small rule which you are going to concentrate on. It could be something like, I dunno, like no standing on a particular piece of furniture.

Every single time that rule is broken, act swiftly and calmly and implement an immediate consequence that doesn't include any negotiation and is a 'right now' one. i.e. I told you not to stand on that, so I am going to take that biscuit off you/ turn off the television, not keep this conversation going, or 5 mins in the bedroom.

It shouldn't be a dramatic consequence, but annoying and ignore any protests. All other bad behaviour is completely ignored.

Your children will then probably focus more and more on that ONE rule because it is the only one that gets your attention, and you'll get lots of practise for a couple of days at being very firm and harsh, about that ONE thing. Once you have cracked it, you can find another rule, and then build them up until the rule is no drawing on walls. In the meantime, limit damage by 'toddler-proofing' your home by controlling access to drawing things.

What you are trying to do is establish control, rather than get all confuzzled in a million different behaviours with different consequences etc etc.

I have lots of sympathy and empathy and wish I could help.

There is one comment that stands out in all the posts so far I think which I can imagine might be the most effective.

When compo said : "then they all played a lot of family games together to bring them together as a unit".

I know it could sound a bit pathetic and ridiculous, board games and hide and seek compared to everything else, rules and consistency and so on, but if there's one thing I can say changes the whole mood and dynamic of our family when it's all going down shit road, it's to play a game together. That has held true even as they grow into teenagers.

You know when it's all going wrong, they're not being that bad, but "that badness" is only ten minutes away. So you don't necessarily need to punish them, but you need to get a grip on things.

I have found it hard to do because you have to stop what you're doing and sit down and play x y or z but it seems to have a very good effect. Afterwards they are more ready to listen and cooperate and be helpful.

I suppose it must be the positive attention. I don't know. Whatever it is it seems to jolt things out of crappiness and there is an accumulative effect.

Excuse me if this is grandma's and egg-sucking and you spend your entire life playing Scrabble! It just struck a chord with me.

Totally agree with star. Pick one thing and stick to it. But you will get them pushing back, so make sure you can keep your.patience. and keep it, and keep it.

No good reacting at all of they are.trying.to test you - they have won instantly as soon you do, and it just means the next time they play up, they know the line they have to get past, iyswim? And so the behaviourescalates.

It is very hard, but it is the nest way to regain control. And starting small and building up means it is manageable.

It is not going to happen overnight, but calm, consistent application will get yyou there.

Totally agree with star. Pick one thing and stick to it. But you will get them pushing back, so make sure you can keep your.patience. and keep it, and keep it.

No good reacting at all of they are.trying.to test you - they have won instantly as soon you do, and it just means the next time they play up, they know the line they have to get past, iyswim? And so the behaviourescalates.

It is very hard, but it is the nest way to regain control. And starting small and building up means it is manageable.

It is not going to happen overnight, but calm, consistent application will get yyou there.

ps I know this is no use at the moment of utter defiance and bad behaviour but longer term and accumulatively I think it is very positive for making the children like and listen to one again. And making you like your children. It just sort of means everyone gets along better and it's harder to abrade.

I just feel like I have lost any control I might have had and dd is the most stubborn child I have ever known. We are also bad at being consistent and I especially look to them to change because I don't know what to do.

Try the one thing, thing. If you can crack that one thing, it will give you the confidence to go on. You will feel with at least one thing, you have control.

Got to say I have no expertise except that my children have also been defiant and I have been inconsistent. Also I have a very, VERY stubborn child who would have absolutely everything withdrawn and say "fine" and go to bed, stay there and remain utterly resolute.

It sounds like more than "discipline" in the traditional restrictive sense is needed. More like discipline in the teaching and learning together sense, as if you need to grow to like and respect each other again. If you are at the throwing up hands in despair stage, which it sounds like to me.

I don't know how you organise yourself but it sounds like you need to get your own head straight about what you want before you need to broach it with the children. Like, writing lists of what behaviour you want, isolating the important ones and watching for trigger points.

Like, do they start cranking up at particular times of day when your attention and energy is depleted. Can you, for example, move away from "firefighting" discipline and towards heading them off at the pass, before the trigger point arrives.

I think I know what you mean in that you long and ache for a day when you don't have to "tell them off".

When things go right it doesn't feel like "telling them off" it just feels like "come on chaps you need to help me here" which is less draining.

Having been in similar positions I wouldn't judge anyone for reaching such a stage. It's so sad. I hope things turn out ok and you have a good day soon.

DD is now doing what DH asked her to do hour ago so maybe we do give in too soon. I find this all so hard.

Mine won't help around the house. If we ask them to do anything you would think we had asked them to do a major job and if they haven't played with it they don't see why they should tidy up.

Go into their bedrooms with big binbags and take almost everything out of each. ONe bag per room/dc. As of tomorrow they have to keep their own room tidy. Get them onto it 40 minutes before they normally get ready for bed. If the rooms are practically empty it won't take long. The 9 year olds can even learn to wipe down surfaces and vacuum.

Let them have some say but clearly define about what. Let's say there are 6 toys of some description in each room. At certain intervals they can change them for 6 others, they can decide which.

Maybe each Friday evening can be family dvd night. Each dc takes it in turns to select the film for one Friday and prepare any snacks/drinks for the family.

This is what I would do. I feel they don't care about their toys becasue they are overwhelmed by the sheer volume (and I live no differently in this respect mind).

I read once and it worked with my dd, that you can warn dc before you lose it. You say something like "I'm about to get anygry, if you don't stop ...., I will get angry". Mine was younger but she'd ask worried, "are you angry now?" And I'd say, "no, not yet but if I have to say .... again, I will be angry" and magically she responded to that.

Is it a certain time of the day/evening when this gets drastic? If so take them out for a cycle/scooter ride round the block just beforehand, wear them out.

I agree re a third party being able to help - sometimes they listen to others when they wont listen to you?

Try calling supernanny or nanny 911?

PP's have come up with some great ideas.