I can't bear the thought of being without my children but I seriously fear for their future

[FabIsGoingToGetFit]

They are 9 and under and I love them so much they are the reason I am still alive tbh. But we have no control over them. They used to behave for DH and not me, now they will yell and scream at both of us just as much. Today the 6 year old weed on her bedroom floor because she was put there to calm down having hit her younger brother and bent my fingers back.

I do not accept that all of what they do is normal childhood behaviour I believe this more than that. They don't care if toys are broken, they draw on door handles, walls and the table. They leave things where they fall. The would rather have no toys to play with than put a few books away, they scream and shout in our faces and slam doors. They will physically hurt each other and will hit and kick us.

If it is normal childhood behaviour (and I know no one else like this nor did I have any problems with the many children I nannied for.) how on earth can we get some order in our lives as seriously I can not take any more.

I know I am doing a crap job but I am trying so please no flaming as no one can do it more than I am to myself.

We have no control over them at all.

have you thought about doing one of the Webster-Stratton Incredible Years parenting courses?

you can sign up via the council's children's information service, and a creche is usually available.

A friend of mine showed me the stuff from her course, and she has lots of individualised action plans developed specifically to deal with the issues she was facing with her children. It all looked really practical, personalised stuff.

Just talking on here, especially with total support and no criticism, have helped so much and I have calmed down. I have just been up and praised the children for playing nicely and stayed calm when ds2 was about to get upset when dd ate his biscuit. Baby steps maybe? I also need to learn to stay calm and not give up at the first step back.

Telling my 6yr old off makes sod all difference

I have to appeal to her conscience, IYKWIM

Talk to her about the consequences of her behaviour on other people, how they might be feeling because of her actions etc etc... how she would feel if the situation were reversed

And it has to be a talk, not a yelling at. I have to really give her something to think about

It does make a difference, sometimes

As she is a kid who doesn't really care if she's told off or shouted at by me or DP

disclaimer: this is not to say I NEVER shout, I hasten to add!

My 3yr old needs a more direct approach

Clear and basic descriptions as to why she's pissed me off/been naughty or whatever

And time-out in her room. The 3min thing doesn't work, because she is a Class Act at going ON AND ON AND ON

So instead I say she can come out when she's been quiet (i.e no shouting/screaming/banging) for 1 minute

Then we do the sorry and cuddle thing and forget about it thing

And move on until next time

i think you need to sit down with your DH and decide on a set of house rules. like the sort supernanny uses. then decide on what the consequences of rule breaking will be, i.e; time out, toy confiscation, no social time etc. it can be a different consequence according to teh age of the child and also what they place value on.

both of you need to be in agreement and need to back each other up when enforcing the rules. then sit all your dc down together at the table or after dinner and introduce teh rules. you tell them that this is how things are going to be from now on and the consequences are non-negotiable.

they will test you, believe me. just stay strong and persevere. you should be seeing improvements after a few weeks.

also agree in doing alot more as a family, encouraging a sense of belonging and loyalty. give your dcs household chores and offer a reward scheme as incentive. and talk to them, find out what is going on in their heads.

Go on a parenting course. Also start making sure you reward good behaviour, hunt it out and reward it, lavishly. Try to ignore the bad, don't give attention for it, don't argue, stop the dangerous but with hold attention; but for the smallest please, or picking up rubbish heap praise and attention. You can even keep a star chart (not really for them, but for you), your aim is to give 10 stars a day, and you have to hunt to reward the ten good things you can find each day (you have to find 10, as the behaviour improves you can raise your standards, but you start by rewarding the ten you can find).

This is the advice of a friend who is a paediatric nurse btw. I am not super mum.

When your DD is calm (is she the nine year old), can you speak to her about how upset you are with her behaviour? Is she aware of the effect it has on you? Perhaps don't try to hide how miserable you are and she may respond more positively?

I know that DD reacted with shock when I told her I was disappointed in her on one occasion and she was very upset - this prompted a change in attitude far more than my yelling ever did.

I second a parenting course. Nothing to lose is there?

I also find myself comparing my kids to those I nannies for! It's not just you!

DD is 6.

I have told the children I have had enough but a friend said that was wrong. I should say it is unacceptable. Contrasts with some of you saying I should tell them how they make me feel.

A parenting course would be great for strategies and support from other parents...do you and your dh work as a team and take the same approach?

We try.

if only there were only one clear-cut right way of parenting!

I wish

That Buddhism for Mothers book is really about parenting toddlers, isn't it? (Have just looked inside the book on amazon.com) or is it also about school-aged dc becasue I think you need different techniques when they get a bit older. I am still working on finding mine

You know where the the problems are, you've mentioned consistency and giving up at the first hurdle. Therefore you've identified the problem.

The consequence of the problem Is their bad behaviour. It must be utterly draining for you to be faced with going back to the beginning but if you don't an out of control 6 year old will be a walk in the park compared to an out of control 12 year old.

That is exactly what worries me, Alouiseg.

I don't think there's anything wrong in telling a 6yr old how they've made you feel (within reason, obviously)

I try and get dd1 to tell me how she thinks she's made me feel

Eg: DD1, you ran away from me in a busy street today. I couldn't see you. There were lots of people, and lots of cars. What do you think I was thinking when that happened?

It gets her to replay the scenario and I try and get her to see it from a different perspective

Works sometimes, anyway

I think what I'm trying to say, is that if I rant away at her (which I am prone to do on occasion) she simply 'zones out' and doesn't hear ANYTHING

The Buddhism for Mothers is mainly about babies and toddlers, but I still revisit it even though mine are 4, 6 and nearly 8 as the stuff about mindful parenting is still just as relevant.

There is a Buddhism for mothers of school age children book too, but I haven't got round to reading it yet.

thanks helvq,
have just found it. Sorry about the hijack fab

Fab, I know you don't smack, and feel very strongly about it. So don't for one minute think I am advising it. But I thought I would tell you my story.

I used to smack my children; for quite a while, it was the only way that DD1 (who has SN) could be stopped from doing anything, and even that often didn't work. Anyway, it got to the point around Christmas time, that I had noticed that she would push, and push and push until she was given a smack. Then she would look at me and give a 'so what' kind of response (although not as sophisticated as that because she has a S&L delay). The trouble with that is, that there was nowhere else to go. I had delivered the ultimate sanction (a light tap/smack on the bottom), and I certainly wasn't going to start beating her, so what could I do next??

It got to the point where I thought deeply about my approach. I have never thought that smacking is wrong, and I still think it can be an effective form of discipline if used with measure and control (although I know most on MN would disagree). BUT - when a method doesn't work, there is no point in using it. Especially something like smacking, because you run the risk of doing it to make you feel that you are doing something about the behaviour, if you see what I mean.

So, at Christmas time, I said to DH that I thought we should completely avoid smacking at almost all costs. Instead, we decided to give "1, 2, 3" a go. To be honest, I could not see how on earth it would work. Especially as DD1 in particular (I have 3 DDs under 5) is so fixed on her own agenda.

Now, I say "DD1, I am going to count to 3, and if you don't , , , , then I am going to .

Bizarrely, the sanctions can be absolutely tiny! I often use "....I am going to help you." So, "DD1, I am going to count to 3, and if you don't get off that table, I am going to have to help you get off." I don't know why it works, I don't know how it works, but it works. The two older children scurry off of furniture at the mere mention of starting to count. DD2 (2.9) scuttles away at "One", and DD1 (4.6) who has SNs needs more time to process things, so she will often wait until I exhale after 3 and start to say 'right'

I also use the naughty step if necessary for DD2, and DD1 (who can't stay still for long enough to sit on a naughty step) gets strapped into her booster chair for 2-3 minutes to give her time to calm down and think about her behaviour.

I suppose what I am saying, is that if you get into a cycle of their behaviour esalating, and your response escalating, then it can be very hard to get out of that. You end up either going beyond what is reasonable, or running out of options.

Not sure it's helpful but found my DS would get 'hyper''naughty' 'stroppy' just before mealtimes. By moving dinner forward and having a 'supper' type meal he is in a better mood in the evenings. When at the weekend he heads this way I offer a drink and fruit/ raw veg. After he eats it he's calm again. Whether this is hungar or distraction I don't know but it works

My DS is too young for me to offer advice re parenting strategies, but I wonder whether Omega 3 supplements might help? I'm sure I've read somewhere that they can help improve behaviour, and although that is for children with ADHD it might be worth considering as surely anyone could benefit. OK, so I'm guessing the problem would THEN be getting your children to take supplements, but perhaps the Omega 3 eggs or fish rich in Omega 3 might be worth a try???

I use "one - two - three" and echo that it really really does work.

And I think that part of the reason it works is that you are allowing your child the dignity of doing something in their own time, within the limits you set for them.

Children actually do love helping and being praised - but conversely they hate to be herded and ordered and the two impulses often end up working against each other.

I have always tried to "police with consent" - ie enforce reasonable behaviour but give them choices and options within that.

So that could be, "do you want to tidy up your room before supper or after?"

Or, "ok, we have three jobs to do - hoovering, washing up, tidying. Which one do you want to do and I'll do the other one?"

Also, I think that positive consequences can be helpful - there is a weird fatwa against bribery but I personally think that relevant rewards are part of a healthy understanding of how life works. So, "if you help me put away the shopping, then we'll have time to make cupcakes together", or whatever. That works much better (IME) than punishment or negative threats, which can feel cruel and arbitrary.

Good luck - parenting is so hard sometimes.

lou - you are so right. I hate smacking and have done it last week and it didn't work and you are just stuck. I think the I am going to have to help you.....is inspired.

Just been out in the garden playing a ball game with dh and the kids and seeing ds1's grin on his face was amazing. It made me realise they just want us to do things with them, give them time and attention, and a ball game is enough.

DH and I have also talked about letting more things go where possible, to not lose heart if we have a set back, to try and say yes rather than an automatic no and just try harder.

When I came back from grocery shopping dh was giving them marks for helping - something they really do not want to do - and it was working brilliantly.

mumbar when mine were smaller - before ds2 was born - I used to think are they hungry/tired when tantrums were starting and I had kind of forgotten that now they are older. I will reconsider it in future.

Numptymum They did use to have fish oil, eye q I think, but we didn't notice any improvement and they were very expensive.

theyoungvisitor giving them choices sounds good and I think would work well with mine.

Thanks so much to all of you.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what are their diets like?

I ask because I knew a teacher who said the behavioural changes at his school when they went on that Jamie Oliver regime made his head spin. He said they went from uncontrollable little ruffians to model kids within a couple of weeks.

Can you cut out all squash and processed foods?

Not really as they don't have any.

Their diet is exceptional and everything is cooked from scratch.