WDYD when dc doesn't give a shit and star charts/time out/removal of favourite thing doesn't work?

[bunjies]

We are finding dd2 difficult to discipline as she really doesn't give a toss about any of the sanctions we impose. She is only 5, and the youngest of 3, so we are prepared for a certain amount of attention seeking but she also has to realise that there are consequences to deliberately scribbling all over her elder sister's drawings, or constantly jumping on the sofa, or spitting or scratching, or not doing what she's told etc. We've tried star charts, time out, and withholding things but she doesn't care about getting treats or having her favourite sleeping bag taken away. In fact, when she's put in time out she starts singing as if she's having the time of her life!

What do you do when you run out of options?

You weep and reach for the wine
But I will await the answer with you, as I am having similar issues with my 5 yo dd.

If sanctions don't work then don't use them. Why is she deliberately scribbling on her sister's drawings? Is she seeking your attention?

How about having to do some chores??

Sounds like she's bored. Give her day some structure so that she doesn't have to think up things to make life interesting.

Failing that, glass of wine and music up loud. (for you, not her!)

LOL about the wine . Believe me, I been there!

I really don't know why she spoils dd1's drawings. They'll be sitting nicely at the table doing their own pictures when for no reason whatsoever or provocation from dd1 she'll start defacing her sister's picture.

I have given her chores to do in the past, like washing veg, cutting strawberries etc but it's not at these times that she's a problem. In fact she can be very helpful. We did wonder if she was getting over tired so we started putting her to bed earlier but found she wouldn't go to sleep as she wasn't tired enough.

more attention seems to work,
earlier to bed sounds good, wake her earlier in the mornign to tire her out?

Mt no. 4 dd who is the last of the 3 born very close together is like this too, she is 4 but since she learnt to walk she went from being angle child to little miss pickle. She is very rarely nasty but she thinks it's very funny to do "naughty" things.

I have no answers what so ever, not even school is wearing her out but at least she is much more compliant there!

What kind of structure are we talking about here zandy? On weekdays (except Weds - we're in France) she goes to school and comes home at 4.30pm. Her brother and sister stay on to do their homework so she has our undivided attention for at least an hour before they come home. However, she usually just wants to watch tv. When they're all together she wants to do whatever the others are doing and quite often follows dd1 around (which irritates the hell out her). I actually feel sorry for dd1 because she is definitely suffering from middle child syndrome. She usually has a very placid nature but even she is tested to the limit by the antics of dd2 and will lash out, which I suppose is the reaction dd2 wants .

Bad behaviour, or any behaviour that you want to discourage, needs to have consequences, as you clearly understand.

You do not have to see the consequence as a punishment. For drawing on sister's drawing I would tell her to apologise to sister, and give sister attention while ignoring naughty dd. If she fails to apologise, time out. Do not listen to whether she is singing or not - doesn't matter.

Star charts are too much like hard work for me.

Give her attention - but on your terms.
Give attention to the injured party if she hurts any one.
Wear her out. Very important!
Ask her to help you around the house (see first point).

I was thinking like having a 'timetable' of things for her to do between 4.30 and bedtime. perhaps give her her bath when the others are needing some space. Perhaps add in a time when the children WILL play together (board game/drawing) with you overseeing.

If it's timetabled (pictures will work as well as words if she's not reading yet), she can see at a glance what she has to look forward to.

Oh, and make the activity times short, ten minutes, not half hours. (you can always add two ten minute sections together for something she is happy to take time over).

Not sure if it will work, but it's worth a shot. Maybe she can even help you make it.

I think that at 5 your dd is old enough to be taught about the consequences her actions have. I would take the time to teach her that she shouldn't scratch, spit or destroy her sister's drawing because it makes her sister upset or hurts her. This should be the reason why she refrains from doing so, not because otherwise she herself will be punished in some way, i.e this isn't about her, but about learning to be considerate to others.

Likewise when she does something nice draw attention to how she made someone else happy rather than giving her praise for being a good girl or something. Hope that makes sense. The book "Unconditional parenting" explains it much better

Also - her watching TV in the hour you have alone - how about you try getting her into a habit of doing something else with you or else sit down and watch it with her while you discuss what you watch.

Hope it gets better for you soon!

Sorry for disappearing - real life etc!

OK, today she got home as usual after a school trip. I had a chat with her about her day and then she went upstairs to play with ds who had also come home. Afterwards she watched tv for about 45 mins until dd1 came home. Everything was fine until dinner time. She looked quite tired so after a bit of post-dinner play dh got her ready for bed. At this point she lost the plot and refused to brush her teeth or get changed. Dh first withdrew her story then her sleeping bag. So she has gone to bed with her clothes on but I'll change her once she's asleep. It's now an hour later and she's still awake . Her mood swings appear to be completely unprovoked.

I dunno, it just doesn't seem to be a lack of routine with her.....

did she want to go to bed at 6.30pm? Seems extremely early.

Has she just got into a habit of creating a bit of conflict every day?

It's 8.30 pm here!

where is bunjies?

Bunjies, I second what DKmum says about reading 'unconditional parenting' if you feel rewards and punishments aren't working.

Have you read how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk. There is a chapter on alternatives to punishment. Prepeared for lots of people to say the book is rubbish etc!!!!! Just a suggestion

I'm here - waving madly!! Yes, we're in France so it's now 9pm. Dh started getting her ready for bed at 7.30pm. I think she's asleep now though.

Without wishing to start WW3 would someone be kind enough to give me a short introduction to Unconditional Parenting? Also, how does this work when you have other kids who do respond to sanctions?

withdraw yor attention - and if you say you do - i don't believe you - kids want nothing but the attention of their parents.

and if the parents are then ignoring them and [playing with their siblings .....

so kid goes in room for a bit.

im all for relaxed parenting - really i am - but somethings need punishments - spitting for instance.

the kid goes to a place on hr own with no contact - absolutely none.

i think labling unconditional parenting as such is an excuse to be lazy when things get hard.

My dd2 doesnt respond to sanctions. She is 8 now and it relies on quick thinking to stop her 'getting round' rules.

She took to drawing on the furniture last year so I made her sand it, 10 mins a day and took her 2 weeks. She hasnt done it again.

well, mine both have autism so we had to get creative, because neither of them gave a shit what we said or how we felt or whether we were happy or cross with them. And they didn't understand language so trying to sit down to negotiate was pointless. They didn't even know their names! And I realised that a punishment is only a punishment if the child sees it as such. You don't punish a child, they do it to themselves by how they feel about what you have done / said.

so we were pretty much screwed.

So with ds1 for example, he hated the sound of the hoover. And we used that. He did something unspeakable and the hoover went on.

Mainly we physically restrained them. Moved them. Held them. Stopped them from being able to do the things that we would otherwise have to try to get them to give a shit about any punishment or scolding we tried.

When I look back on it we trained them like dogs but needs must and if the conventional stuff just isn't working you need to get creative. Really look at your child, know them, get inside their head and find something that is just so specific to them and use it.

Hello again. It's been a while since I read Unconditional Parenting, but here comes what I believe are the essentials:

By focussing on rewards and punishments (also with your older DC's) we are creating a generation of selfcentered people. Everything is about them - if they do something bad they get punished, if they do something good they get rewarded or praised for being good.

If you wish your children to grow into empathetic and caring adults they should be explained and taught that the reason they should not do this, that and the other is that they hurt/upset other people and the "reward" for being nice is that they make other people happy etc. Spelled out for them at the beginning: That's so nice of you to share with your sister -look how happy you made her.

Always expect best behaviour and intentions - act puzzled when not forthcoming.

Explain to her - you are tired and unreasonable now that is why you act up instead of putting on your night wear and brushing your teeth. You will be happy again after a good night's sleep. Then help her quickly and off to bed she goes.

If she gets really moody and upset, try picking her up, cuddling her and telling her you love her. That's when she needs mostly to know that you love her unconditionally regardless of her behaviour. Often takes the fuse out. And you can still tell her in no uncertain tone that her behaviour is out of order.

With unconditional parenting, the theory is that you don't try to control behaviour through bribes (including praise/ positive reinforcement) or punishment. The idea is that they don't feel like your love for them is 'conditional' ie will be withdrawn if they misbehave.

It's a really interesting read, we use it a bit but with a toddler it's a bit difficult in practise.

I thought 'How To Talk...' was good too, in that it offered an alternative way to handle bad behaviour.

Like any of these things though, it's not always easy in practise, depends on whether the theory fits your family or not.

WRT your DD, we had some behaviour issues with 22mo DS recently. Not the same as a 5yo I know but...sanctions weren't doing anything for us either so we started completely ignoring the bad behaviour. A bit of a risky strategy but he'd already been told a thousand times it wasn't nice/ it hurt etc. so he knew that bit already. If he pinched/kicked, I'd either hold his hands or legs still and say nothing, carry on dressing him or whatever. If he did it really hard I'd put him in the next room and walk away.Not time out exactly just walk away long enough to take a deep breath and keep my cool! It's worked a treat, he's pretty much stopped a week later.

It does sound to me like attention seeking so maybe no reaction whatsoever could work? Maybe remove her from the table saying nothing then commiserate DD1 on her picture being ruined. I'm sure she knows it's not a nice thing to do but she also knows it will create a fuss.

I did the above on the advice on an MNer actually, must go back and thank her!

Hope you find a solution soon.

I don't know about UP being lazy, I find it really hard not just to impose sanctions straight away. It comes naturally to want to punish bad behaviour I think, it's hard thinking of alternatives.

That's what MN is for I suppose!