WDYD when dc doesn't give a shit and star charts/time out/removal of favourite thing doesn't work?

[bunjies]

We are finding dd2 difficult to discipline as she really doesn't give a toss about any of the sanctions we impose. She is only 5, and the youngest of 3, so we are prepared for a certain amount of attention seeking but she also has to realise that there are consequences to deliberately scribbling all over her elder sister's drawings, or constantly jumping on the sofa, or spitting or scratching, or not doing what she's told etc. We've tried star charts, time out, and withholding things but she doesn't care about getting treats or having her favourite sleeping bag taken away. In fact, when she's put in time out she starts singing as if she's having the time of her life!

What do you do when you run out of options?

Hecate, I have no experience of autism. However, I am worried that someone might read your post and think it's the way forward. Wasn't there a Michael MacIntyre Investigates program on a home for adults with special needs? One of the adults was terrified of the fire extinguisher I believe and the 'orderlies' used to threaten him with it. MM did a secret filming job and the whole nation was in uproar about how disgusting this behaviour was, home got shut down (?), they definitely got sacked etc.

I'm sorry and I'm not trying to upset you but what you said about the hoover reminds me of that. I feel really sad and sick.

UP the basic idea is that punishment and rewards can (but don't always!) make children comply in the short term but in the long term can be harmful because punishment makes the child resentful and rewards remove intrinsic motivation

intrinsic motivation = not ruining your sister's pic because it is the right thing to do (rather than because you will have your DS removed for a week)

So for the drawing example you would point out how upset the elder sister is, and inform the younger child that this kind of behaviour upsets people and give the child something else to scribble on but you wouldn't punish it. You might have to do it time and time again, but they do eventually get it.

Gotta go, can hear someone being sick!

I don't have much useful advice, but wanted to empathise.
DS1 is 5 and has been playing up recently, a lot of it due to jealousy of his little brother, but also I think because he is just really overtired.

We are in France, too, and he is exhausted. Since the clocks changed he's been having trouble getting to sleep in the evening, so is just becoming more and more overtired.

I do think that for 5 yr olds, the school days here are really, really long. Even when I was 17, my school days were shorter than his (well, unless I stayed for a club). It takes a lot of self-discipline for kids that young to be at school for so long, especially if they are eating in the cantine, which is noisy and patrolled by scolding ladies.
I can see why she wants to veg in front of the TV when she gets in, and can really recognise your description of her annoying people for no apparent reason, as DS1 has moments like that too.

I think it's a safety valve for letting off steam after the huge effort of being good in class for an 8-hr day.

I'd agree that maybe you need to find a way to do something quiet and fun together before her siblings get home. Maybe 20 mins TV, then an activity together?

DKmum said it so much better.

(Oh and it was just a very loud cough in case anyone wonders why I am back so soon!)

You definitely have to be more creative if you are avoiding rewards and punishments.

You would also need to question things a lot more. Of course spitting, scratching, and scribbling on the older sister's drawing is unacceptable.

But is jumping on the sofa wrong? Does she always need to do what she's told? Maybe the problem comes from what you are demanding?

Sometimes you'll stick with your original thoughts. Sometimes you'll adapt to what your child wants.

No, didn't upset me at all. We did what we had to do at the time.

It angered him. No doubt about it. But so did restraining him when he was trying to bite and kick and throw himself down the stairs.

Children are upset and scared when their parents spank them I am sure. I'd never consider hitting because I think it's brutal. But millions of parents hit their children as discipline. I got my dad's belt once!

Ignoring a child could also be seen as abusive, withdrawal of attention and acting like the child isn't there - how do we think the child feels about that when they are begging mummy mummy mummy and the mother turns her back?

Naughty step? Forced to sit on a step while a parent looms over you? Pushed back down again when you try to stand?

When you think about it, any and all methods of discipline are 'cruel' to the child and cause bad feelings in them. But what can you do with a child you can't reason with at all? be it toddler, or any age but just doesn't give a shit?

It wasn't pleasant I'll be honest. I would have given anything to have been able to sit them down and say "look, what you've just done has made me feel sad" and have them say "sorry mummy, I won't do that again." but that was not to be. And biting = sound I hate worked. The alternative was what? let them bite? They'd still be biting now! hit them? put them in their room and hold the door shut? Tell them no and have them bite again before I'd finished saying no?

I would have LOVED to have found a different way. I tried everything. None of the 'experts' I asked to help me could come up with anything that worked! Nothing. Not the paed, not the early years advisory team, nobody.

I look at my kids now, talking, in mainstream, calm (ish), ds1 even shows empathy!!! I think back to the child he was and I think whatever we did, it did help him to learn the rules. We found something when nothing else worked.

I have to say that while I understand your pov, I find the hoover used at that time when nothing else bothered him was no more 'cruel' than a spanking, the withdrawal of attention or the naughty step.

Oh and I agree with AA, being 5 is really hard in France. The school day is long and no more nap. DD has only just stopped being horrible in need of lots of attention every night after school.

Hecate, that must have been so hard for you

Hecate - thank you for explaining, I appreciate it. That program made me have nightmares and I think seeing your post just retriggered those feelings.

While I obviously don't like the method you used your post has made me think about some of the methods we use eg time out and perhaps we (as in my household) also need to rethink those

Bunjies, have you got a trampoline or something else she could jump on?

She is old enough to understand about spit containing germs and germs spreading disease. I'm sure you could find some grim pictures online to back up how disgusting this habit is!

Agree with othersideofthechannel - it is also important to take a second to consider, and not automatically responding NO. Is it unreasonable what your DD is doing or asking?

Always remember that the children are not the property of the parents and cannot and should not be controlled, but rather guided in acceptable behaviour.

Have to add that I have no knowledge of SN, so I appreciate that different methods may be necessary.

Hecate - I'm so glad to hear that things have worked out for your dcs. You must have felt terrible at the time.

AA - I think you are very right in the idea that her being good & behaving herself at school translates into letting off steam at home. The problem is she's like this in the hols and weekends too . She's still having naps during the day (she's in Moyenne Section) but doesn't always sleep and her behaviour doesn't always correspond to those days either.

Just been having a chat with dh about all your comments. We both agree that it's most likely an attention seeking thing but that the way we deal with it has to be different. Perhaps explaining more clearly why her behaviour is unacceptable rather than just saying "don't do that, it's wrong".

I thought when it came to dc3 we would have all the answers. We've been well and truly caught on the back foot with this one!!

Yes, give reasons. DCs always ask me 'why' and it is helpful in weeding out the necessary from the unnecessary rules.

Is it really desirable for children to always comply without thinking it through or because of what might happen to them?

Ideally people wouldn't drink and drive because of the risk of hurting themselves or others not because of the risk of police sanctions.

By the way, DCs do as they are told at school. They do sometimes make reflections at home about how the teachers/canteen staff handled misbehaviour. They seem to understand that things are inevitably different in a class of 25 children.

Back again. Things weren't great this morning as she was taking peoples' stuff and not giving it back. I did put her in time out but explained how her behaviour impacted on others. Lunchtime was fine and after school she wanted to play outside so she made mud cakes while I sat with her. She's currently playing aqua beads with her sister but this is the kind of situation that often degenerates when she decides to muck things up for dd1. Fingers crossed for a peaceful evening.

try speaking to her about her behaviour when the going is good. Make a little plan with her when she's calm and happy. Don;t sit about just waiting for the next blow-out.

do you give her a small snack & a drink when she comes home, because sometimes low blood sugar can make them kick off.

I was getting to the end of my tether with my DD1 so Dh drew up a very simple chart which meant bad behaviour (ie anything that made me cross) would get a cross. The crosses would be added up at the end of the week & if there were more than x, that person would lose their story. As DD1's most favourite thing is her story, this worked very well.

After the first week, the amount of crosses allowed was reduced & I started putting up smiley faces for good behaviour ie not aggravating DD2 at breakfast, getting dressed, putting shoes & coat on for school etc.

My Dd's are 6 & 3 & this chart has really helped DD1 (dd2 is wired completely different & much more chilled) to realise her behaviour isn't acceptable & if's she's naughty, there will be consequences.

I don't really like recommending books as quick fixes. I like it when I read a book that I can take ideas from to add to my parenting tool bag.
I have started reading How to listen so your Kids will listen and listen so they will talk. There are some older threads that discuss it.
It has slowed me down, made me think through what I do and say.
My ds (5) has been hard work recently and in just over a week of intense concentrating for me, we have seen small yet large for us changes.
We will not be living the book word for word, but I feel more postive we can get through this.
I bought it 2 weeks ago at the end of my tether.

Yes, there are lots of good ideas in 'How to Talk'. It recommends, like PointyDog said, finding a calm moment to talk about why something is a problem for you, and asking the child for ideas of how to approach it.

I hope last night was a bit calmer.

We used to give her a snack when she got home but found that when we started having earlier dinner and bed times she wouldn't eat as she wasn't hungry.

It's good the chart worked for you lovingthesun. It sounds like the kind of thing we had for dd2 but as I mentioned she just wasn't bothered about the consequences. hence why we're in this situation.

I have heard such good things about that book that I think it's worth getting anyway.

Last night was ok but this morning she cocked up by messing around with stuff after she was warned not to. Again, gave time out and tried to epxlain why she was there but she didn't want to listen. So, dh spoke to her about it later when she'd calmed down.

I really feel for you - DS will be 4 tomorrow, and is uninterested in sticker charts (if given stickers at nursery he just gives them away), rewards, sanctions (unless it's something huge that he really, really, really wants), or the consequences to others.

He isn't so bad at home where it's possible to intervene quickly and do something he doesn't like (eg being held on your lap till he calms down/apologises), but if he decides to have a naughty day at nursery nothing makes much difference to him. If he decides to have a good day, he is very good, so he can do it which is more frustrating !

When DD was in MS there was no nap time and she was exhausted every evening. She needed to be in bed by 7pm and we didn't get in until 5pm so there wasn't time for snack plus evening meal.
We had to have a 20 minute cuddle as soon as we got in the door followed by the (kid's) evening meal every evening nearly as soon as the cuddle was finished and even then she had a tantrum every evening!
Luckily DS is less than 2 years older so he could fit into this early meal routine comfortably. He did his homework and had a bit of a play after dinner once DD was asleep.

perhaps scribble on her drawings

Thanks all for sticking with me on this. It's nice to know there are others out there (meant in the nicest possible way of course!)

LOL Latootle. DD1 already resorts to this but dd2 just laughs at her.

CMOT - I know what you mean about them deciding to have a good or bad day. I'd like to think it isn't that calculating though .

OtherSide - I wish she didn't have a nap as I think we'd have a much better bedtime routine without it. At least she's only got a few more weeks of it.

Yesterday afternoon we had lots of kids over to play with the dcs and she was fine. After they'd gone I spent about 30 mins doing drawing with her while dd1 and ds played on the Nintendo ds & computer. She was great (although I forgot to say this to her ) and then we all had a dance to some music after dinner. No school yesterday so the late getting up time also translated into an 8.30pm bedtime but she managed ok.

Today she's been mostly good although at lunch she did muck around with a spoon I was using, consequently dropping it on the floor, even though she been warned not to. It's these moments I really don't get. Why would she continue to do something even though she's been told not to.

I've also come to the conclusion that any sanction has to be immediate otherwise it's reason and impact is lost on her. Hence why 'saving up' for a treat via a reward chart doesn't work.