Research is a load of baloney...?

[Kmg]

I am very sceptical of any 'latest research project results', and even more so since Child of our Time. Last week there was a child who went through a dreadfully difficult first year - parents arguing, splitting up, being shunted from one to the other, moving around the place, and it was fairly easy to conclude that this would have an effect even on a young baby, and she was clearly 'deprived'. Winston then said there was a well-accepted test of a whether or not a baby is happy, and they did this thing where you observe the baby playing with toys through a one-way mirror, and observe the reaction when the mother leaves the room for a while, and then re-enters.

My son is part of a research project, and we underwent this 'test' too. His behaviour was almost identical to the child on the TV - which apparently 'proved' that she was desperately unhappy, had no bond with her mother, and was clearly damaged and deprived!

I could go on to explain why my son behaved the way he did, but I do not feel the need to justify myself or his behaviour. Many, many of the other aspects of the research project are equally suspect to me, and the visits often seem a waste of my time, and I cannot have any faith in the validity of any results they might come out with.

Although my daughter has fallen in love, she and her beloved both feel they are too young for a sexual relationship - he is just 16. (At least, that's what she tells me!) However, they are intensely attached to each other and my daughter has remarked to me that she wishes they had not met so young, because she knows she has a lot of growing up to do. It's so strange, because at that age they have the physical longings of an adult wrapped up in a child's emotions. I too wish this relationship had not come at such an early stage in her life.

Tigermoth - aren't kids affected by their peers and may wonder why they don't have a daddy (or mummy)? therefore they may miss out on what they don't have?

I think it is brave of a woman to wait till her kids are older before embarking on another relationshp - but how many do you think really do this? From my experience most women re-marry or enter another relationship very quickly. They are often lonely and some need to for financial reasons. If they are subjecting themseleves to having no man (and presumably not a sex life) then they may as well stick with the original man and wait till the kids are older and leave him. I have a friend who is doing this.

Anyway different horses for different courses.

Mooma&Bloss, you both got together with your partners at a young age - how long did you wait before having children? My parents were both 19 when they married in the 60s and Mum was 20 when she had me, & the marriage was well on the rocks when my brother was born (Mum was 24). I've always wondered if the marriage might have lasted longer if they had had a few years to get to know one another and develop the relationship on a deeper level, despite their young ages, before having children. I think there was a lot more pressure in the 60s to "settle down" at a young age which thankfully we are free from now.
I know Mum never regretted having us when she was so young and she did a fantastic job of bringing us up singlehanded and I would say she is my best friend; it's only in the last few years that she had had the opportunity to "spread her wings" and see a bit of the world.

Sorry this is from rather a long time ago, as I haven't had a chance to indulge my mumsnet addiction for nearly a week...but Croppy and Lil, whatever makes you think I am advocating traditional roles for men and women! I am currently the sole breadwinner in our extremely non-traditional family. The point I was making in my last posting was that I prefer a society which lives within rules...founded on common sense of course, not religion. There are fewer social rules in the UK compared with other countries. For example, I was disgusted by the behaviour of the students when I was at university, as each one struggled to find out basic truths for themselves. Many girls ended up in sexual relationships they didn't really want, one I know was raped after she got drunk by mistake at a student social event. After university, people who were not already paired up found it incredibly difficult to meet new people. These are just two small examples of situations which happen far less often if there is a strong idea of what is acceptable behaviour and not, and strong traditions about how things are done. I haven't really got time to expand on how things are done in Kabyle, but it isn't a valid comparison to make between Saudi Arabia, a kingdom with (I think?) laws based on religion, and Algeria, a modern democracy with a constitution and secular laws, which as far as I am aware, promote the equality of women. If we went there, my life (work, husband, home, children!) wouldn't change substantially, nor would my rights. Actually, my rights would improve, because I would actually have some under the Algerian constitution, whereas, in the UK there aren't any rights on anything when you come to look at it...sorry Lil, I am criticising the UK again, but it's all true!!

Sorry SML, but I can't shut up on Algeria any longer. Its government is authoritarian and human rights group regularly blast the country for the brutality of its security forces, the disappeanace of thousands of people over the last decade, widespread corruption and last month's ban on pro-democracy demonstrations. A million people protested against the government in June... The International Crisis group describes the country as a "social and economic time bomb". Unemployment remains high (official estimates are 30% but amongst young people it is thought to be close to 80%) the housing shortage is defined as critical and the legal system is corrupt. The World Bank report for 1999 reports that only 53% of girls in Algeria are educated to secondary level. The infant mortality rate (1998) was 54 per 1,000 live births (UK 5.8). In the past 2 months, it is estimated that security forces have shot dead 80 people in the Kabyle region.

I don't mean to be rude but I frankly find it utterly incredible that you can compare such a country unfavourably to Britain - one of the world's most open democracies.

I'd be very interested to hear what rights you feel you feel are denied by living in the UK. Personally, I like the absence of a written constitution. Obviously without one, by definition a citizen's rights are far greater than with one. As soon as rights are put into a constitution, they are automatically limited and defined by that document - not so in the UK where citizen's are assumed to have every right in the world except those that are declared illegal via legislation (which in turn is enacted by a democratically elected government).

In any case, in Algeria, while the country's consitution does inlucde gender equality, women's personal status is defined by the "Family Code" which is based in part on the Shariah.

Maybe for you, life in Algeria wouldn't be much different to here but that sadly isn't the case for the poorer /uneducated there who constitute the vast majority of the population.

DO you really think that there are few social rules in the UK than in other countries?. This isn't my experience. Are you really saying that the man who raped your friend did not know it was wrong?.

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SML, sometimes I wonder whether we are talking about the same country when you write your posts about the UK. I don't know when you went to university but my experience in the late 80's early 90's was one of extraordinary freedom. Most of the students I knew made their own choices about whether or not they had sex with their partners, went to church, supported the Tories or Militant.
I'm also not sure where you are coming from with the notion that it is hard for single people to meet people when they leave university. Have you been to any bars or nightclubs on a Friday or Saturday night recently? The majority of my friends have found their partners since leaving university.
Also, I believe it is a fallacy to think that a constitution guarantees your rights. An open, free society guarantees your rights as it is only in an open society where transgressions of human rights can be discovered, brought out into the public domain and dealt with. I have to say that I am far from convinced that Algeria is a genuinely free society.

Couldn't agree with you more on the written COnstituion issue Bugsy. Libya, Zimbabwe, Singapore, Indonesia and Iraq are just a few of the countries that have them. Doesn't seem to be any guarantee of rights whatsoever.

Sml,you obviously have very strong reasons for thinking the way you do. You say in your posting that ' I havn't really got time to expand on how things are done in kabyle' As and when your time permits, could you please give a very brief rundown? I can only speak for myself, but it would then be more easy to see how you arrived at your point of view.

Eulalia, of course,it's different horses for different courses.

I suppose I start with the assumption that a happy parent at peace with her/himself is more likely to result in a happy child. So whether the parent is single or part of a couple is secondary to this. Though as you say, finances can come into the equation to some degree, as does a parent's views on going out to paid work or the importance of staying at home during the childhood years. I can appreciate that for many parents, being the sole breadwinner while their children are young is going to be an undesirable option. I can also see, as you say, that there's an argement for sticking out a relationship until the children are older.

BTW Some of my single friends will be most interested to hear about your neck of the woods. It sounds like no one stays single there for very long! Is it something in the water?

Croppy, it is simply not true that rights are greater if they aren't laid down. Look at anything in the UK, if you get it it comes down to some official making a judgement that you can have it or not. And if we do have any rights, they are usually gained by our membership of the EU and our recourse to the European courts.

What you say about Algeria is a mixture of truth, wrong facts and ignorance about the various factors involved. Ignorance amongst your sources I mean. Take the so called critical housing shortage for example. In 1962, the population of Algeria was around 5 million. Today it's 32 million, and many of those people are just entering the job and housing market. Remember what happened in the UK in the 1980s when the mini baby boom generation hit the job market just as the generation that had been depleted by the war was leaving it? (more people entering the job market than leaving it) We had high unemployment I seem to remember. If you go to Algeria you will see the building that's happening in every town and village. Every family is building a bigger house than the neighbours! These are not houses, they're palaces, with courtyards, balconies etc etc, and they aren't just for the rich. Everybody is building like that, even if it takes one generation all their lives to put up the first storey, and the next generation does the first floor (you can build like that if you build with concrete the mediterranean way).
Take another issue - the thousands of people alleged to have disappeared in Algeria over the last decade. Where does this information come from? Could it possibly be from the Algerians who arrive in the UK on political asylum? A small number of these people are genuine hardline extremist religious fundamentalists (who, incidentally are totally anti democracy and mostly despise the UK). Most of the rest are professional thieves who see Europe as a soft touch. They are here under false names, with false papers and false stories. These people are willing to tell any story about what is going on in their country in order to get their papers in the UK. I personally don't know of one single person who has disappeared in Algeria. Since the French pulled out in 1962 that is.
I find that figure about live births per thousand frankly extraordinary, as I have had personal experience of the Algerian national health service as an ordinary citizen, and found it to be far superior to the UK one (when was the last time you went to casualty and saw a doctor immediately?)
Could go on a lot longer about all the other points you raised, but haven't time.
What rights am I denied by living in the UK? Well, the right to invite my step children to visit me here for a start. The right to be registered at the doctor's surgery of my choice. The right to unemployment benefit and housing benefit. The right to absolute ownership of my house. The right to freedom of speech. Etc. Etc. There are masses more issues to do with rights which I can expand on if anyone is interested...am REALLY late now!

Sml, I am not being personal here, but why do you stay in Britain?. You seem to portray it as some "Dark Ages" Country. That is not my view at all, this country has come along way since the women in the kitchen and the men out to work!, and when you think about is that was not so long ago, when my granny was a young married woman in the 1930's. She worked outside as well with my granfather on the farm, but also said she had her house "chores" to do, I still hear her saying things like that, she still eats various things on certain days of the week. If I went back to work, I'd make 3 times what we jointly make on this farm. I don't want to go back though that is my choice and no one is telling me to do that. Why can't you chose the doctor of your own choice?, and why can't your step-children come to this country to visit? Another point, you can say what you want, I do and there is such a thing as "Freedom of Speech". I find your comparission of Britain to Algeria odd thats all.

Jodee - we were together for 6yrs and married for 4 of those before we started our family. Interestingly, although it was my priority to be a mother rather than follow a career, it was the biggest shock of my life when I had my first child. I thought it would be wonderful (told you I wasn't very mature when young!) and in fact dd had colic and yelled for weeks. I had never met a difficult situation before that I couldn't beat just by trying harder - I was completely flummoxed!
One thing I think has kept dh and me together is that we agree on all the fundamental issues, even though our backgrounds are different. Also, we allow one another to change and accept that things can't always be rosy. We just celebrated our 20th anniversary, and are still totally committed to each other and our family. It is all just a huge gamble at the outset, isn't it? You can't tell how things will turn out. I do feel very blessed to have met him and am not smug or complacent about the future.
I'm sorry to interrupt the discussion about Algeria, but wanted to answer Jodee's question. I'll zip it now!!

Croppy, a few more points: I have asked my husband about the Family Code in Algeria and he says it is like this: if a family is declared Moslem, then they have the freedom to follow the Sharia. If they declare themselves non Moslem, then the family code says that women have the right to wear what they like, work, drink alcohol etc. They do inherit half what a man inherits of family property though. This is a reflection of the tradition that women don't take family land/money as dowry when they get married. Wives don't bring inheritance, and daughters don't take it. Of course, this only applies to family property. Women's own property they can do what they like with. I know women who own land, houses etc as well as jewelry, furniture and such. It's a bit like how the British upper classes do.

The figure of 54 deaths per thousand live births, I have been thinking about this and it really is nonsense. If there were that many, I would know a few people who had lost babies, and I don't know anybody who has. Furthermore, my husband pointed out that the figure must be made up as Algerians don't give this sort of information to foreigners. If anybody comes sniffing round asking for this kind of statistic, they will be told to get lost.

You just don't know what a loser you are on to by arguing that there's more freedom in the UK than Algeria! Precisely the opposite is true! In the UK we have one day of limited democracy every five years, when we get to choose between the best of several evils to be our elected dictatorship for the next five years. There is far more day to day pressure on the government from ordinary people in Algeria.

Of course there are disadvantages to living there - too much burocracy for a start.

Tigger, the UK IS in the dark ages! Kabyle civilisation is 7,000 years old. They have a well thought out answer to everything that we argue about here. Why can't I register with the doctors of my choice? Well, a doctor has the right to refuse you as a patient without giving a reason. If all the doctors in the town refuse you, you can appeal to the local health authority, who will allocate you to a doctor. This doctor can also refuse you without giving a reason. This can go on until you get allocated to one who will accept you. But there is no guarantee that this will be a surgery that you can actually get to if you don't have a car, as it may be far from where you live, and you may have small children.
My step children can't visit me because the consulat won't give them a visa to do so. I have no right as a UK citizen to invite who I want to visit me - it is all at the discretion of officials in the Foreign Office.
Freedom of speech - well, you have it because what you are saying isn't annoying anyone powerful. Look what happened to the demonstrators against China during the recent visit by Chinese politicians to the UK.

Chico, it is not a question of whether that man who raped that student knew he was doing wrong - I guess he did. Nothing in that girl's education warned her that it was not smart to get drunk and go off alone with a man she hardly knew.

Tigermoth, I would love to answer your question about Kabyle civilisation. I have expanded a bit more, but there is lots to say, and this isn't really the appropriate place for me to do so right now. All I can say is, look out for the book!

PS, Croppy, I know there's a few more points you raised which I haven't addressed, but I really must get to work now, sorry!

I have been to Algeria (mu husband spent a year there working for an Aid organisation). I think it is pointless to continue the discussion but suffice to say, I don't agree with you on the relative merits of the 2 countries particularly in terms of quality of life and opportunity for the less well off.

Of course you can't just invite people to visit you here on a personal basis - to my knowledge there is not s single country in the world which has no visa requirements in place for certain countries. Certainly when I visited ALgeria I required a visa.

I just don't understand what you mean by freedom of speech in the UK. As I understand it your freedom is only restricted by any infringements on laws such as "inciting racial hatred". Also confused on why you don't have the right to own your own house (unless its a leasehold I guess but then of course you would have voluntarily chosen to buy a leasehold rather than freehold). Also confused as to why as a British citizen you would have no right to housing benefit/unemployment. Last 3 times I have gone to casualty I have been seen immediately because on all 3 occassions I was a high priority (once 8 month pregnants, twice with my baby son).

Incidentally the statistics on infant mortality and education are World Bank statistics which ALgeria is a member of.

Anyway this is all rather pointless. I am sure you will be very happy when you move to Kabyle which I'm sure from your dislike of the UK, won't be too far off. WOuld be curious to know why your husband left this paradise!

Sml, I do not mean to be personal but are you not a little concerned about a country which you say would be unable to provide proper statistics on something as very important as the rate of baby deaths?. If you cannot even measure a problem, how do you solve it?. I do not think that in the UK, a baby death could not be reported which means of course a proper investigation into the circumstances.

I am just curious - why is the UK govt an "elected dictatorship" more than any other democratically elected government in the rest of the world?. DOn't you think that the fact that there isn't more presusure on the government by way of mass demonstrations suggest that people are basically happy here?.

There are certianly many more civil liberties available here than Australia and any North or Suuth East Asian country (the only places I have personal experience of).

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Hi Bloss. Should stress that I don't necessarily think many of the differences between Australia are bad but I was thinking of a variety of things such as the extent of random breath testing, the tax file number thing (i.e. where the inland revenue has the right to monitor your bank account), the rigid enforcement of compulsory tax return filing, armed police & the generally greater rights the police there have compared to the UK, compulsory voting and I think in general, just more rules and regulation (i.e. compulsory bicycle helmets and swimming pool fences). In my view, many of these things are positives but nonethless, I do feel that in general there is less intervention from the authorities than in OZ. I remember being gobsmacked a couple of years ago when they first introduced hygiene requirements i.e. no uncovered food and refrigeration/temperature requirements. The uproar was very entertaining!!.

Chico, don't worry, births, marriages and deaths are recorded in Algeria the same as in the UK. They just don't hand this information over to foreigners who come asking for it that's all.

Bells, actually I think the happiness index is higher in Algeria - due to many circumstances. The weather is better for a start! People don't complain much in the UK because they are used to the way things are and they can't believe that life could be better, or that they could play a part in making it better. Algerians are readier to take to the streets because when they do so they often get results. In the UK we have had a thousand years of lords and peasants. In Kabyle, there aren't lords and peasants. Rulers were traditionally elected. Rich people aren't allowed to behave as though they are better than poor people. It is a really free country. Of course, the combination of warm climate and geography means that no king has ever been able to hold the whole country in the way that Britain can be held. Look at British history: it is littered with failed rebellions because there's nowhere to hide in this small island. And every time the pressure reached bursting point, the upper classes doled out a small bit more liberty to keep the masses happy, without compromising their own grip on the country at all. Also, from birth onwards we are subjected to constant propaganda about how favourably life in Britain compares to life in other, non AngloSaxon countries. There is really a lot of misery here, but people just think that's the way it is and it can't be changed.

Bells, I agree with you about fewer rules in the UK. The police really don't annoy people a lot for small things compared to other European countries. I don't think they do in Algeria either, there were a lot of roadblocks a few years ago, but they don't really lie in wait to hand out on the spot fines like in Italy.

Croppy, am curious to know which aid organisation your husband was working for as to my knowlege there aren't any currently in Algeria, they were banned after being used for spying. Re the visa, but they gave you one didn't they? Had you invited an Algerian back to England for a holiday, they might have had a rather different experience.

Sorry, but there is no right to benefits in the UK if you are not working. They are granted if you comply with the application rules and can be withdrawn, eg if you refuse a job. ie you can be jobless, but not receiving benefits. I know of two people who had good reasons for refusing jobs, and had their benefits terminated, and others who've had it stopped for other reasons. These people are still without work, yet they do not receive benefit. Your house can be compulsorily purchased if the authorities so wish. If we have the right to freedom of speech, as I said before, what about those anti China protesters? And I have just thought of another one: the right to a secret ballot. Surely that is a fundamental aspect of democracy, yet we don't have it in the UK.
I'm afraid I really disagree about opportunities for the less well off in Algeria too! At one point council flats were being given away to tenants. It is a socialist country, with an egalitarian education system. Students get grants to go to University over there. The absence of such grants is cited as a powerful disincentive for poorer students to go to uni in the UK. Etc, etc. As you say, we shall have to agree to disagree!

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Fair point Bloss on both the FOI and surveillance cameras.