Research is a load of baloney...?

[Kmg]

I am very sceptical of any 'latest research project results', and even more so since Child of our Time. Last week there was a child who went through a dreadfully difficult first year - parents arguing, splitting up, being shunted from one to the other, moving around the place, and it was fairly easy to conclude that this would have an effect even on a young baby, and she was clearly 'deprived'. Winston then said there was a well-accepted test of a whether or not a baby is happy, and they did this thing where you observe the baby playing with toys through a one-way mirror, and observe the reaction when the mother leaves the room for a while, and then re-enters.

My son is part of a research project, and we underwent this 'test' too. His behaviour was almost identical to the child on the TV - which apparently 'proved' that she was desperately unhappy, had no bond with her mother, and was clearly damaged and deprived!

I could go on to explain why my son behaved the way he did, but I do not feel the need to justify myself or his behaviour. Many, many of the other aspects of the research project are equally suspect to me, and the visits often seem a waste of my time, and I cannot have any faith in the validity of any results they might come out with.

Hi Star - let me assure you that there is no patriarchy in my private life! No-one rules the roost. He may bring in the wages, but he still does his fair share of the housework and childcare and for my part, the work I do during the day, whilst unpaid, is my job. Equality rules in our house!

I do understand that women still have a long way to go in public before they are accepted as equals to men, if that ever happens at all! The differences I was referring to are the very real differences between men and women (physical, hormones, way of thinking, etc) but these should not be used as an excuse to lower women's position in society. I was simply disagreeing with the notion that whatever men can do, women can do and both genders are the same. Men will always be better than women at physical jobs, as will women be better at communicating. (I know that is a bit of a generalisation.)

However I do feel that we are getting off the topic a little. Any kind of research is going to be flawed. Each person is an individual and for every 100 people that behave in a certain way, there will be an equal number of people who behave the opposite. It is awful to say that because a child acts in a certain way, it indicates that she will be a tomboy or he will be a sissy. Not only is this labelling, but grossly inaccurate. I just hope the programme didn't lead to a load of parents measuring their children's ring fingers and drawing conclusions because of it!

And I don't think that the word 'tomboy' is sexist. A word is only sexist if you label it as such. I was called a tomboy and did not feel that I was being belittled because of this, or my gender called into question. It's just a word, nothing more!

Hi Star, Virginia Woolf ... I am sat beneath a picture of her as I type. An amazing woman!

Secondly, I absolutely agree that we have come a long way but we still have a mountain to climb! Stereotyping is always bad and yes, motherhood is terribly romanticised. Whatever yours, Jbr's, Lisav's or my own experience of motherhood is the stereotyping and the general bad deal mothers get is testemant to the unequal status of women in society. The fact that motherhood is considered natural and the maternal instinct cosidered normal is equal evidence to this unequal state of affairs. No wonder so many women get post natal depression!

A really good book that I would recommend on the subject of biological difference is called Myths of Gender by Anne Fausto Sterling and she basically deconstructs many of the supposed differences said to exist between the sexes!

Like you Star I am bringing up my daughter to be very politically aware. I am constntly staggered by the number of - young women particularly - who think that feminism has no place in our society and who believe that the arrival of the 'laddish' woman shows evidence that we have achieved equality.

Jbr, I think the feminism you are refering to is the one that believes we should not 'collude' with the patriachal-capitalist society at all... however, this may be a valid personal choice (although I always wonder how people feed themselves etc., in such circumstances) but it is hardly practical for all and it is very prescriptive and authoritarian! Surely the whole point of feminism is choice.

More research! I read today that women won't put the hours in at work and therefore bosses don't trust them hence we get less wages. In an average lifetime (what is an "average" life?) a man will earn £250000 more than a woman. I resent that, I certainly do put the hours in!

I don't think money is the most important thing but I do believe it should be spread equally between the sexes and the only way that happens is if women go and earn it but even then we still do "women's work". It isn't should women's work get recognized eg, sitting with your kids in the front garden or whatever, it is should such a thing as "women's work" exist?

Batters, you are so right about the power of words.Wittgenstein's view of language determining culture is a philosophy that I have always agreed with 100% The labels we use are what create the stereotypes in the first place. So what will make us equal? Maybe using the term "working father" as well as "working mother" or not using these labels at all?

It's always assumed a woman is not going to put the hours in. Even when there is no child care available, why is that a woman's problem, it is a parental problem.

You see female MP's going on about women's issues. I don't see child care as a woman's issue. Even then you get the women who say even if it was free they still wouldn't "abandon" their children (as somebody said to me, implying that I have).

I do agree with your points about labelling, which is why I find research so disagreeable. However, I do believe that we can go too far in dissecting words, and in turn labelling them. Obviously words such as 'bimbo', 'working mother' and so on imply a stereotype on women that is not on, but some people find the word 'gingerbreadman' sexist and I think that is going too far. We will find ourselves wrapped up in petty arguments and the real cause of feminism will be lost.

As for maternal instincts and natural motherhood, well I'm sorry Winnie but I do believe that women take to motherhood naturally, it is what we are genetically designed for and why our hormones make us more emotional and communicative. I bonded with my baby straight away and had certain instincts as to how to handle her. My husband, who was there during the birth and who supported me a great deal afterwards, had to learn a lot more that came naturally to me, such as interpreting her cries, knowing what would comfort her, etc. I think we should embrace motherhood and all the maternal instincts that we have, it is part of being a woman and I wouldn't like to deny it for the sake of equality. It has nothing to do with equality.

However, I do agree that motherhood is subject to stereotyping as most other things are. But don't think that stereotyping is limited to women, everyone gets stereotyped in one way or another and is subject to just as much inequality as a result. Builders have a certain reputation, as do students, asian shopkeepers, the list is endless. It is not just a sexist fight. Women are deprived in the workforce and there are barriers in place for many mothers who want to return to work. But equally there are barriers for women who would like to stay at home.

I think there is one point on which we all agree and that is that there is still a lot of work to be done before women will be considered equal to men. Especially in the workforce.

Many women do not take to parenthood naturally and that is one of the most common causes of PND feeling that you aren't "normal" Also mothering and fathering aren't any different.

You are saying all women are naturally designed to be mothers and that is all we can be. Does that make women without children total freaks?

jbr, you are misreading/misinterpreting things again.

what lisa said - and meant - was that when a baby DOES arrive the mother GENERALLY bonds with it sooner and understands its needs quicker than the father because of female hormones. and all that. and that's all.

she did NOT say women are designed to be mothers and that is all we can be.

read, inwardly digest, THINK, then respond and you might not make so many silly misinterpretations...

I agree Jbr, you have misunderstood completely. Of course women find it easier to bond with their babies and many things DO come naturally, after all, we've been bonding with our babies since conception! Men do not have this, so for them fatherhood is learnt. PND is largely a hormonal imbalance that happens after we give birth, which is why the treatments for it are hormone based. Also, men get very depressed at this period too, as they haven't had that bonding from the womb, so this little thing is just thrust upon them and they have had little time to adjust.

I knew that someone would accuse me of saying that women are only designed to be mothers! So I shall not even stoop to answer that one. Only to say that before I had mine, we were not intending to have any children at all. I had my mind fixed on a career. Funny how life turns out sometimes.

But all of this is only my opinion and Jbr, you are bound to disagree with some of it. That's what these discussions are here for, so we can air our opinions and listen to other's views.

You can have your mind "fixed on a career" as well as having them. It really shouldn't have to be an either/or choice.

I don't want this to be a 2 way battle Jbr! Yes I do agree, you can have either or, I was simply saying that I choose to have just my career. I wasn't going to have any kids at all. It was a personal viewpoint.
I don't regret it now though. And hopefully I can get back into my career soon. Women are good like that see, they are adept at juggling things. You only have to watch men cook to see the differences there!

Er Lisav, you said:
"Of course women find it easier to bond with their babies and many things DO come naturally, after all, we've been bonding with our babies since conception! Men do not have this, so for them fatherhood is learnt"

Unfortunately, this is not correct. Parenting is learnt by both men and women and every study done to look into gender differences has found that men and women bond with their children at the same rate and develop child care skills at the same rate. If you can find research that shows otherwise, I'd be very interested.

The differences we all observe are down to the opportunity that men and women get to be with their children and bond/develop these skills from the start - i.e. women get maternity leave. Men get nothing. Soon, women will get up to a year off work with their children, men will get 2 weeks. Is there any surprise we see the effect.

It seems a shame that so many women, frustrated with their partner's lack of involvement in childcare channel that energy into blaming men. There are actually a lot of factors that make it very hard for men to be involved parents in this society. But, we've had that conversation...

PLease check out the article I wrote for mumsnet under "Big Issues... getting dads involved" for some practical suggestions, and send the guys to www.fathersdirect.com or stuff for them.

Oh.. and I do all the cooking

Tom, all we get is 6 weeks pay at 90% and then SMP. Hardly any great benefit given that 6 weeks is barely enough time to physically recover from the birth and that assumes that you worked right up until the day you actually have the baby. As for part time working and so on, well men have the ability to do this to exactly the same extent as women and yet few choose to do so. I just get cross at suggestions that the current state of affairs are tilted towards the mother. Where are all the men taking their unpaid parental leave?.

Tom, I know that working in the City, my colleagues aren't representative of the broader population but after 13 years of working in a male environment I can't see that men's involvement in parenting is entirely dictated by the opportunities they have to spend with their children in terms of paternity leave and so on.

I was willing to sacrifice my career to achieve a 4 day week and walk out at 5.45pm every evening - I don't know a single father in my bank who would do the same. All of them could happily survive on the 20-30% less they would earn but they prefer to hang around here until all hours and spend many evenings in the pub. It was no easier for me to negotiate part time hours than it would be for them. After my 14 weeks maternity leave, my request for a 4 day week was turned down flat. So I resigned, they panicked and here I am 2 years later still facing a lot of resentment. It would be no different if any of them wanted to do the same and likewise, my career prospects (and earnings) would be immediately restored if I started hanging around in the evenings.

My husband works in an identical field and yep, he gets home an hour - hour and a half later than me simply because he is reluctant to be one of the first to leave. I can sympathise because I know just how tough it is to do!!.

My point is that in a lot of fields, I know it is easier for women to have more time with their children but in fields where it is equally difficult for both sexes, it is only women who seem to be willing to make the necessary sacrifices.

I'm weeping. Perhaps you could get me to stop by inviting me round for dinner....? Please?

Interesting points all of you. Here are some responses.

Of course men's participation in childcare isn't dictated by paternity leave etc. It's more complex than that. The arrangements (or not) for paternity leave are just a sympton of general attitudes that childcare is women's, not men's work. It starts at nursery - with only 2% of childcare workers are men, and some people actively hostile to their involvement, our children learn very early on that women look after children.

Men have the burden of breadwinning still - on average, men earn 2/3rd of household income, and work, for us, often means "providing for our family", in a way that it doesn't for many women. For women, discussions about work and children often centre around what you choose to do ("I chose to go back to work... I chose to go part time... I chose to stay at home" - although not all women have this choice)- for men, it seems there is no choice, and precious few voices in the society say otherwise - it's just "get on with it - it's your job - there is no other option - you have to go for breadwinning/career". Of course, for many women, especially single mums, you are providing just as much for your family as dad is, so don't get me wrong, but the point is that the whole discussion for us men is not centred around a notion of choice in the matter. This is basic to the way boys are brought up - no one talks to you about having children and being a dad when you are young - it's all focussed on career.

Yes, Gracie, maternity provision is paltry, and I am pleased it is going to be extended. The new arrangement will provide 6 months paid and 6 months unpaid. I do however, object to the second 6 months unpaid not being available to fathers, and we are going to take the government to court on this when it comes in, because it is sex discrimination. Let me explain this: Women can have special provision for pregnancy and childbirth, which is solely women's experience, but not for childCARE, which both men and women can do. 6 months IS enough time to recover from birth, and when you get into the second six months, we are talking about time to look after the children, which both men and women can do. IMagine a couple where the woman wants to get back to work after 6 months off, but doesn't want their baby going into childcare yet, and the dad would like to take 6 months off to do this. There will be no option to do this. There should be. 100,000 men stay at home full time to look after their children in the Uk, so it's not unusual. We are working with the Equal Opportunities Commission on this, who have had legal advice that the government is setting up a sexually discriminating law. What they are doing is effectively enshrining in law the principle that childcare is women's job. We don't want to see any provision taken away from women at all, we just want this to be available for fathers.

Bells - you work in a child-hostile sector of the economy, and you are to be admired for the stand you took. It's a traditionally male sector, and those tend to be the most hostile to flexible working - employers have not grown up from a culture where their (mostly male) employees could leave their family responsibilities at home (with their wives) and focus solely on their careers. I'm unsure about whether it's easier or not for women to ask for this kind of thing, as there's no data (we are planning research into it as I speak), but certainly women are pioneers here. Many men in those situations have taken on themselves the idea that childcare is not their responsibility, and it's fine for them to stay out all hours - the workplace culture certainly encourages it. It's not the norm - while 28% of women are happy with the hours they work, the figure for men is even lower - only 20%, so it's not as if the average dad is happy with the situation.

My point here is this: we live in a society that, for the most part, still sees childcare as women's responsibility - some women believe this, some men believe this, but many are changing their minds. At the end of the day, these attitudes shortchange our kids - they get stressed mums and not enough time with dad (we just did a survey of welsh children - 91% said they wanted more time with their fathers). Women get discriminated against because employers think they will take loads of time off for their kids, men miss out on what is the most fulfilling part of life, and it's biggest responsibility. I think it's a rubbish situation, and am doing my damndest to change it, but it's slow, and both men and women resist it.

Cor! My mouth is watering, I'm smacking my lips!

I find more women think a woman's place is in the home than men do now. That is worse than when men think it. It is women who tend to say other women are selfish etc if they work.

I don't see what is so hard about saying you both share the financial side and also share the rest. Of course, the "home" stuff is as hard as you make it as well. If you can't do this for practical reasons fine, but if you don't on principal, then that is wrong.