Research is a load of baloney...?

[Kmg]

I am very sceptical of any 'latest research project results', and even more so since Child of our Time. Last week there was a child who went through a dreadfully difficult first year - parents arguing, splitting up, being shunted from one to the other, moving around the place, and it was fairly easy to conclude that this would have an effect even on a young baby, and she was clearly 'deprived'. Winston then said there was a well-accepted test of a whether or not a baby is happy, and they did this thing where you observe the baby playing with toys through a one-way mirror, and observe the reaction when the mother leaves the room for a while, and then re-enters.

My son is part of a research project, and we underwent this 'test' too. His behaviour was almost identical to the child on the TV - which apparently 'proved' that she was desperately unhappy, had no bond with her mother, and was clearly damaged and deprived!

I could go on to explain why my son behaved the way he did, but I do not feel the need to justify myself or his behaviour. Many, many of the other aspects of the research project are equally suspect to me, and the visits often seem a waste of my time, and I cannot have any faith in the validity of any results they might come out with.

I was reading an article about packed lunches today - more research!! Anyway what struck me was every single packed lunch was made by a woman.

Cheers Tom! I do agree with what you say. Incidentally, I heard the founder of Fathers Direct on Women's Hour a few weeks ago and was very cross at his treatment. Jenni Murray seemed more interested in accusing your group of being "touchy feely" and so on rather than exploring the idea that equality for fathers means equality for mothers.

Hey Bells - that was funny - the whole premise of her attack was that we "claim" to "represent fathers", which we have never done. So the basis of her program was wrong and I think she sounded very silly. It's a shame, because Jenni Murray has interviewed us a few times on Woman's Hour and knows where we're coming from.

Also, we're actually very complimentary of the mainstream of feminist thought. The "enemy" is neither men nor women, but stereotyping that (crudely put) reduces women to childcarers and men to breadwinners - both attitudes are two sides of the same coin and limit men and women's ability to fulifill themselves in every area of life.

Jbr - does it matter - packed lunches really??

Have you read the string on the Taliban/ Afghanistan? why don't you focus your considerable energy and feminism into that arena, and chill out a little on the surveys!!

Hope I've not offended any men with my comments!! No Tom, I understand what you are saying, but I do draw from personal experience a lot of the time, as I don't like surveys! My man has been a rock of support, but I found that I did have this instinct about my baby that he didn't. He did take time off and spent as much time with her as I did, but he was more nervous about handling her, soothing her and so on.

Also, when a mother breastfeeds, she gets that bond that men don't. So she is better at soothing her baby. I agree that society doesn't give men much of a chance to bond with their babies. They are kicked out of the hospital as soon as we have given birth, some are made to wait in a separate room whilst you have your scan, before being called in. I think that's despicable.

A lot of women don't bond with their babies, and I really do believe that is mainly hormonal, and is treatable for the most part, thank God. There is something special about being a mother, some deeper feeling, whatever. Sorry, that does sound sexist against men, but ask any mother about that feeling. The baby grew inside of us for 9 months, we nurtered it, gave birth to it. There is an extra bond there between mother and child.

I'll shut up now!

Actually a doctor at the University of London I think said that babies don't necessarily get attached to someone just because they carried it. To babies we are just a source of food. He said the idea that they somehow bond with us, it just our spin on it. I personally think it varies case to case. I am not sure I like the thought of a baby I am carrying just seeing me as someone who provides lunch!! He also said that breastfeeding doesn't mean mum and baby are getting close - he says baby just thinks "hm lunchtime" not "ah, I am so close to my mummy" or something like that. I can't remember the direct quote.

What a dreadful thing for this doctor to say! As if a baby just thinks "ah my mealticket!" This is total rot - a baby bonds with the mother (and father) in a much larger sense. Breastfeeding and cuddling (in non b/feeding mothers and for dads) is also about providing security and warmth and general love.

I don't have the proper reference but I have read of an experiment was done on monkeys where two artifical nipples were provided - one provided milk and the other was a warm soft cloth with no food. The monkeys went to the latter even though it didn't give any food.

A great deal of the act of breastfeeding is emotional - your baby can cry in the next room and you actually start producing milk. It is a complex balance of hormones and signals to the brain, not only just a baby sucking at you.

I wonder what kind of person this doctor is - I suppose he thinks that sex is just about reproducing - not a loving act.

It's just breast envy - a lot of male doctors suffer from this ;-). But seriously, has anyone noticed how we women are sometimes our own worst enemies when it comes to getting the blokes to bond with babies? It's easy to set yourself up as the family authority on babycare: how often have you heard mothers criticise the way dads change nappies or hold the baby or similar? It's really hard not to, but if we do we can't blame them for giving up. I once visited a friend with her day-old baby. When the baby cried the dad said "Do you think she's hungry?" and whereas the true answer from most new mothers would really be "Search me, what do you think?", she answered "No, she's alright" - as if she was already the expert and he knew nothing. I'm not criuticising her, nearly all of us do it, but if we're serious about sharing childcare we should try not to.

Tom, whether or not children are looked after by men at nursery has nothing to do with how they see the role of men in the family. It's the men in their own family that are the most important, especially their father, whether he lives with them or not. I really support what your group is doing to raise the profile of fatherhood in the UK, but I think you should travel and see how fathers relate to their children in other cultures - in Africa, middle and South America and the Middle East to take some examples. Many of these cultures are very traditional, with stay at home mums and dads who are near 100% breadwinners, but their attitudes towards their children are completely different from what is the norm here. They are totally involved and they grow up knowing how to interact and play with children. It's not unmacho to be great with kids. It depends from family to family of course how much childcare the father takes responsibility for, exactly like in the UK. Allied with this is a strong principal that for a good family, part of taking care of their toddlers involves not leaving them alone with men outside their immediate family, also not letting them wander around alone etc etc. This is just fact - most men wouldn't leave their own children with other men and I've never heard anyone expressing hurt feelings or a desire for equality because they know the reasoning behind it. So please do not run away with the idea that some ideal of sexual equality amongst nursery nurses will somehow change men's attitudes towards their children in the UK. But we've had this discussion before!

Sorry but I can't see that UK fathers have much to learn from the approach to fatherhood taken in parts of Africa and almost all of South America and the Middle East (only surprised you left off the Indian subcontinent!). These are amongst the world's most patriachal societies and in many of the countries concerned, women and female offsrping don't enjoy anything resembling equality.

Most of the gripes at Mumsnet in relation to Dads are in connection to the fact that men aren't shouldering 50% of the burden of household chores, not they aren't good at playing and interacting with their children.

In any event, can't understand how a blanket ban on men outside the family looking after children can be lauded as a good thing.....

My husband is fantastic at playing with our son and for that matter, any other small children we come across. There is no doubt that our son looks to him as a far greater source of adventure, amusement and general entertainment than me!. This also applies to the vast majority of our male friends in terms of their ability to interact with children. I can only compare British men to Australian and Singaporean men and compared to those 2 nationalities, I think the Brits do a pretty good job of being involved, where time pressures allow.

My only complaint as to my other half is that I carry the vast proportion of the burden of household chores. This is however reflective of the expectation of "face time" at the office and so on which simply means that he has less time at home than I do.

I personally think Tom is right that a greater concentration of men working in childcare would play a key role in changing attitudes for the better.

I think that part of the problem in the UK is the long hours that full-time employees work. In many other countries (apart from USA), workers put in less hours and therefore have more free time for everything, including their families.
In most societies, historically & geographically looking after children has traditionally fallen to women as they were the primary source of children's nutrition and therefore survival. It is only relatively recently in human history that we have been able to have the equality childcare debate at all.
Personally, I am torn on this debate. The Sindy loving, Gone with the Wind part of me wants my big, strong man to earn enough for me to be a domestic goddess. The competent, independent part of me says that I can do just as well in any environment (other than physical strength) as a man, so why should I want to be a domestic goddess?
Sorry if that sounds confused - but I am!

Yeah Bugsy - I think a lot of us are confused. I know I am - I don't know what I want and my husband clearly has even less of a clue!!!.

I am hoping it is pregnancy. I sailed through the first one but am struggling a lot at the mo. Getting off the subject but I wonder whether others have found working, looking after a toddler and being pregnant harder second time around????.

Oh definitely Bells. How could it not be so? First pregnancy I wasn't at work, so could nap whenever I wanted to, and with no children to look after, I had all the 'me' time I wanted. Second pregnancy I was working many six day weeks and had an active toddler to put to bed each evening. I especially felt the strain in the first few months. I felt sick every afternoon at work and my body kept telling me to sleep it off.
I was never serously ill or totally tired, but to buy time for myself I used to overstress my incapacity at times by phoning up my husband and announcing I was totally exhausted and was going to take to my bed the minute I arrived home. The bedtime routine, supper, cleaning etc was in his hands.

There's no arguing with a pregnant woman, after all!

A lot of people reckon it's harder to be a working mother than a working father, not in a physical sense but in an emotional sense. I don't see how.

I mentioned on Babyworld that I lost my job and felt miserable doing nothing all day and got zero sympathy as usual. Well some people were sympathetic but others were saying I should be happy being a mother. I am happy being a mother! How does wanting a job make me not happy being a mother?

I am sick of the definition of "mother" seemingly meaning staying in and doing household chores all day and night!

Surely there is only so much you can do? Not that being a mother means doing things around the house. Doing household chores is part of being a person! Unless you want to live in a tip!

I keep saying to the sahp's on there (most of them women) if working parents are selfish does that include their partners. They don't seem to have an answer for that.

Cheers Tigermoth!. Although I worked full time first time around, I think I have just forgotten how much time I was able to spend relaxing in the evenings and weekends rather than entertaining a toddler and preparing them for bed etc.

Croppy, a blanket ban on men outside the immediate family being left alone with small children is just part of stranger danger, just like a blanket ban on allowing small children to go to the shops alone until they're big enough to look after themselves.
Freedom means different things to different people. My children have less freedom to risk being abused by bad adults than some people are advocating here, but more freedom in other ways, for example I let them do things like climbing into high places, which other parents don't (I only know this because of the number of times concerned adults have rushed to the safety of my children, not realising that the unconcerned onlooker (me) is the child's mother!).

With regard to patriarchal societies, I am inclined to think that the biggest differences are simply the old ones of class and money, not cultural differences. Poorer people in the UK don't in practice have a great deal of freedom from economic reasons. Equality in a marriage depends on the characters of the people concerned, not on whether the society is patriarchal or not. I know of couples in Moslem countries, coming from a very traditional society, where the wife openly bosses the husband around.
Likewise, educated women from these countries tend to enjoy similar freedoms and benefits as their UK counterparts. You might say it's harder for working class women to break out of poverty and get educated in other countries, but realistically, how easy is it in the UK? Precious few women make it off the council estates of our big cities into University, and that's the sad truth.
One of the few cultural generalisations that can be made, in my experience, is that men from Mediterranean countries are fantastic with children. There is no question that they are on average, far better then men in the UK. So, sorry, but I do think UK men could learn something here!

Now I'm really going to say something controversial: the truth is, I don't care whether my husband does 50% of the household chores or not! I feel sorry for people who carry around a little counter in their heads that says "I've changed 34 nappies this week and HE'S ONLY DONE 2!!" I don't expect my husband to do anything in the house, because I know that whatever he's doing is always something good and worthwhile. I admit my feelings might change if he was always to be found horizontal on the sofa in front of the sport on TV though. Now I shall put my head down!

Sml, you are very lucky indeed if your husband is always doing something good and worthwhile when not actively doing chores. I love my husband dearly and he is a good partner and father, but I do have to nag him to pull his weight because he still expects to have plenty of "me" ("him"?) time during the day at weekends, despite the fact that we have a toddler and both work f/t outside the home. Unless encouraged otherwise, he will slope off to the spare room and start doing daft things like rearranging his fishing flies collection or caressing his Linux manuals. I'm often accused by him in our discussions of running a little meter in my head, but that is only because I sense a real imbalance in this area.
As parents, we complement each other well in the attention we give our son - I am the silly, adventurous, roll around on the floor parent, he is the painstaking, patient, peerless reader-aloud and explainer. I would defend to the death his reputation as an ace English daddy, even while silently kicking his bottom on the question of ironing. I can't compare him to continental dads because I don't know any well enough but I am truly surprised that you think all British fathers are inferior. My husband is not the only good dad I know.

errr... unsurprisingly I wouldn't leave my child in the care of someone whom I didn't know or trust. The fact that I feel that a particular person can be entrusted to look after my child has nothing to do with their age, sex, religion or any other "group" to which they happen to belong. Like most things, I would take the decision on the individual circumstances and would do my utmost not to let any preconceptions affect my decision.

Am I wrong in thinking that from previous postings, you managed to go to Oxford despite enduring a relatively poor childhood?

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rights of women in South America and parts of Africa. I spent 2 years living and working in Brazil and Argentina and and my husband spent 12 months in Algeria and Morocco. Sorry but I just can't share your views on women enjoying equality in these countries.

I also don't care how many nappies my husband changes (probably because he basically does them all!). I think all most people want is a supportive partner.

My first internet post. SML, you must be joking in your claim that Mediterannean fathers are always better at it that the British. I am Spanish and my husband is Italian. Ok, men from these countries might be good at entertaining and amusing children but there is no way that there overall role in parenting is as equal as it is here. As far as nappy changing, cooking, cleaning, reading bed stories, teaching skills, getting up in the night etc is concerned, you can forget it. The roles of the sexes are much more split in these countries with women being the nurterers. Ok, so you might not count nappies, but most of us do want husbands who play an equal role in parenting and that goes well beyond a 15 minute roll on the floor in between getting home from work and going off to see your male friends (or your mother).

Anyway, isn't it accepted that in most countries, around 50% of child sex abuse is perpetrated by family members?

Hi Chico - welcome to Mumsnet. My childminder is from Portugal and she is amazed by how many domestic chores and what an active role in childcare British men take. She says that overall the Portuguese have a much more relaxed attitude to children in general but that the men still have quite a traditional role.

I doa gree with Sml on the chores bit, don't care if he helps or not, it is far easier if he doesn't actually, but he does do a fair bit with the kids. Best thing we ever bought was a dishwasher and we've just got another one today as the other gave up the ghost, got it from Scottish Power, 199.95, and its the same price from Curry's as well, it is an Indesit.

Don't you think that the man having to do his certain share in some cases is just pushing the equality thing a bit to far?. I'm not having a go at anyone, just interested in what you all think.

Well in our case, I bring in 50% of the income and pay well over 50% of the outgoings so I think it is only fair to expect my husband to do his fair share. Our jobs are very similar and so we face the same stresses, conflicts and so on in our lives outside the home.

In our case, him doing his bit doesn't include grocery shopping, cooking (god forbid!) or laundry but he is 100% of charge of anything to do with the gardening, rubbish, cars and basically anything else I decree. He also does almost all the nappies as I'm afraid I utterly loathe this task and when my son started to mimic "Oh God" again and again at 18 months anytime he went near the nappy change area with me, we decided that henceforth, to avoid any poo-induced trauma in our child, that hubby should take charge.

From what I've seen, British men have made an extraordinary leap forward in the last generation as far as involvement in parenting is concerned. My husband is fantastic but like others, I certainly have to nag him at times to pull his weight. The alternative would be for me to get completely and utterly exhausted not to mention resentful.