What makes a child "spoilt"?

[TooMuchCaffeine]

A couple of times I have been accused of "spoiling" DS aged 6, for simple things such as buying him presents when it is not his birthday or christmas, giving him a cake/treat when he and DH pick me up from work on the day I work late, little things like that. If I go out somewhere and i see something he would like - nothing expensive, even a comic or something, or if I have been to Costa Coffee which he loves, I will bring him back some of their little muffins. Is that spoiling him? Today I went to M&S to get my lunch, but brought him some undies and socks (which he needs) and our Friday cake, and DH said "he's so spoilt". Can anyone explain how being a nice thoughtful and loving parent equates to spoiling their child?

"Also, a child who has been lucky enough to have good caring involved parents will not, at 6, be grateful for that."

Yes, I agree witht hat and IMo that is not actually a bad thing. DD doesn't have to be grateful to have kind loving parents - it isn't something I want her worrying about at 7y.

Hula, don't back out now
Your dd sounds like an angel compared to ds. he his much more difficult. stubborn. I don't replace toys. Mind you he doesn't respond to rewards and punishments, so I have ended up trying to follow kohn. but most of his friends, mums in the playground. although they exhibit the same behaviour as ds, being rude to mum etc, grumpy, they do respond, to rewards do if you say to them if you don;'t do... you don;t get tv, they respond. ds doesn't care. if you take away tv, dvd's. he just isn't bothered.

but back to the original. i can not grasp, how your daughter is not spoilt . nor are the frineds and children that you know.
and mine, and all the children in ds's class are.
how can that be ?

I'm sorry I disagree Hula I think too many things for kids does make them spoilt.Where do you draw the line? You have to draw a line somewhere,how many toys does a kid actually need?

A constant stream of toys throughout the year is spoiling however clever/manipulative(ie not throwing a strop to get them) a kid is. If they are used to them (which they will be as it's a regular event) they are expecting them so they're spoilt.

Keeping a room tidy looking after toys does not an unspoilt child make. That is a character thing. I have twin boys they get the same one is extremely tidy the other would happily live in a pigsty.

Oblomov don't despair all 6 year olds are a pita at times/ a lot of the time it feels like you're banging your head against a brickwall because kids are designed to challenge their parents. By being firm and consistent he'll get there.

Re the appreciating toys thing some kids just aren't into toys in a big way all kids have different brains. 1 of my twin boys 6 has never been into toys not asked for any, this Xmas was a nightmare he wanted nothing so we got him a globe,craft stuff and books which he loves. The other would have happily found room for the entire Playmobil/Lego catalogues but he was happy with suggesting just 1 thing.

Have you tried packing away lots of toys into the attic and rotating. Also tidying his bedroom so they're all out of view(less overwhelming). Also can you start him off with play ideas.

I also ban TV sometimes now mine are older(they want it less anyhow)it's amazing what they'll play with when there is nothing else to do.

I also have the nothing else out until you've tided away rule,dtwin1 will happily play with a stick if it meant he didn't have to tidy

I also find the no new toys between bday and Xmas rule good. It's hard as mine are Xmas/Sep bdays but they do and half appreciate their new toys at Christmas. I also put some Xmas toys away new and get them out when they're ready to play with them properly not all at once.

My lot also tend to have less but more pricey(cuts down on storage probs too)I think a lot of the trash in shops is a total waste of money,not surprised when kids aren't interested in them for long. It's the throw away society, kids are being trained to throw away and move onto the next toy.

sea , i appreciate your comments. everyone tells me that i expect too much. but i simply can't accept that. i was not rude to my mum. I expect my sons to do the same. i know society has changed, but i can not accept that my sons treat me with any less respect than I treated my parents. I know everyone on Mn thinks I expect to much. but I can not accept that my expectations are unreasonable.
I come from a totally loving family, that was no-nonsense but happy and loving. i want the same for my family, but seem unable to achieve this.

Agree with mila.
I am horrified by every house i go to. all my friends. all school mums. they have rooms of toys. not just a toy box, but the whole lounge and conservatory. my sil, 5 of my friends i can think of, off the top of my head are like this.
do you really think this is good. it certainly wasn't like this for me, when i was growing up.

Sorry, not backing out. Just not got as much stamina for Mn whilst ill. Keep popping in and out.

I don't know the answer. DD isn't an angel, but she is very easy I do admit. She might try to answer back a little, but only ever half heartedly, and stops after a look. maybe it is that teacher look I perfected when in secondary schools

My nature is to look after things, to keep everything tidy and in its place, etc. I am not competitve and pretty laid back in many ways in RL. I might have the odd outburst but again only really half heartedly, and then quickly move on. I tend to live and let live. I am very awar eof how lucky I am. I grew up in very different circumstances to what my Dd is growing up in. I guess DD has that temperament and my habits. I also suppose that she has friends with similar attitudes, perhaps why they are her good friends. As I said she does have some friends who are not like this.

As I mentioned before the charity and donating of things is something she has grown up with and been very aware of as we have actively involved her in from a very young age, so it is second nature to her. For example she was really involved in the MN Christmas appeal, choosing things from her own toys and books, and clothes, that she thought a 6y girl would like.

But she isn't perfect. No child is. But IMO she isn't spoilt. She is a very lucky and privledged little girl certainly, bit I don't believe she is a spoilt child in terms of her expectations, attitude and behaviours.

MilaMae - guess we have to agree to disagree on that point. To me having lots of things means a lucky and privledged child. A spoilt child to me is all about attitude, expectations and behavior, and for me, they do no have to go hand in hand.

Ob have you tried taking away other treats my dd is soooo unmaterialistic it's quite tricky to punish. The naughty step is loosing it's weight and she's very imaginative so she'll just tell herself stories if sent to her room.

However I was chatting to some mums who were all experiencing the same(just started rec in Sep) dd has been begging for some friends to come to tea I told her it wouldn't be happening until we had a week of no arguing/teasing with her brothers. Is working a treat.

Also if you go cold turkey with literally nothing no sweets,comics,cafe trips,Go-Go's as a general rule sticker charts/rewards are more effective as the reward means more.

ah, you're talking about rudeness rather than the way they treat toys? No, you're not expecting too much. Of course kids should not speak rudely to their parents. My ds is 7 now and since he started yr 3 he does sometimes talk to me like a moody teenager, which has really surprised me as he is a delightful boy. I think we deal with it by numerous strategies, most importantly I always try to ensure that DH and I speak to eachother and to DS in a polite way. I don't do things he wants me to do unless he asks properly. If he's rude to me I will walk off and stop engaging with him. Sometimes I will do my best outraged look and go all shrill with shock! Sometimes I talk very quietly about how it's not like him and we just don't talk like that at home, sometimes I will tell him he will be sent to his room. I don't think what you do matters so much as that you consistently and calmly deal with it and face it and not consent to it.

But I don't think it's anything to do with being 'spoilt' whatever that really means....it's to do with a child learning socially acceptable behaviour

I think that spoiling a child is giving in against your better judgement. Allowing yourself to be manipulated by them I suppose. Not the feigned type of giving in (when you know you are going to end up saying yes but you go through the motions of 'thinking about it'). I mean, backing down or letting them do something they shouldn't, just because you can't be bothered to insist.

sorry hula, i did not know you were ill.
ds knows about the poor boys. he is cross eyes and has patched. all his old glasses have gone to the poor boys in africa.
when i have a toy clear out, i lie, and tell him they are going to the poor boys, but infact i sell them on e-bay or the car boot.
evil like that, am I !!

I have no concerns for his sensitivity,.. he is a very sweet boy. but i still maintain he is spoilt. i think most children are these days.

Is your dh a little perhpas? A genuine question that he maybe feeling a bit left out.

No problem Oblomov - have pneumonia, well recovering from it now after coming out of hospital on Monday.

I guess t depends on the definition you give to "spoilt". For me it is a term I really dislike. I hate the idea that a child can somehow become spoilt, as it ruined/damaged/tarnished. I think so long as a child is thankful, appreciative and well mannered/behaved and does't expect and demand, then they are not spoilt. As I said before to me spoilt is not the same as privledged.

I think toehrs have different definitions of "spoilt."

agree with you Hula. I am confused at what some people mean by it really.

mila, funny because play dates have really been non existent in year 1, there were loads in reception. ds has not even asked for anyone to come round.
we don't do reward charts, comics, go-go's or cafe.
rewards, for a child thet doesn't reponds to rewards ( GOD HOW I WISH I HAD A CHILD WHO DID respond to rewards ) .

sorry. best go to bed.

But Hula how do you know she's not expecting things? If she's used to them and they're a regular event she WILL be expecting them. Just because she's clever enough not to voice her expectations doesn't make her unspoilt.

You haven't tested your theory.How would your dd handle having far less at Xmas, nothing else other than a few bday presents,less attention throughout the year? Could she handle never having things bought for her in toy shops and gift shops,could she handle only having sweets now and again?

I think parents are now far too materialistic they like buying 'stuff' and that extends to stuff for their dc, they delude themselves into thinking they and their children aren't spoilt but they are. In the 70s when I grew up most of the kids today would be classed as horrendously spoilt

Either way spoiling is just a word and I think it boils down to the fact that spoilt or not a constant stream of toys is never going to be good for kids or prepare them well for later life.

I do think permissive parenting from parents too scared to upset little Johnny (of which the materialism thing is often another symptom)is far more damaging though as regards producing a spoilt kid.

I think it's very unfair of you to say that children are being 'clever' not to ask for things - they can't win! If they ask, they're spoilt, if they don't, they're spoilt and manipulative

What an ungenerous view of children.

I disagree. I think I know Dd well enough to make that call. She does not expect things and she is always appreciative of things she gets. You can simply tell this from her nature.

Of course at times she will ask for things, but she doesn't get in such situations. If she is with friends who ae getting things she never expects something as well, and often doesn't get.

And of course she could handle getting less at Christmas and birthdays, and throughout the year. There are many times she doesn't get stuff. Long may this continue; I hope we are doing all we can to prevent it. We often go in toy shops and gift shops without buying things for her. She never asks, nor expects. Sometimes she may have her own pocket money to spend but again she often forgets completely about that.

I just know my DD well enough to know that aspect of her nature.

And as I keep saying - my definition of "spoilt" is possible different. Attitude, expectation and behaviour to me is at the core of "spoiltness" (for want of a better word).

and not only ungenerous but I think not based on genuine stages of child development. I don't know that a child of 6 or 7 would ever have the ability to defer gratification to such a degree that they would see a toy, want it, and deliberately not ask for it, as a ploy to get it.

I do take some offence at my DD being considered manipulative Children are all dfferent. Some just don't become demanding and expecting after recieving material gifts. Doesn;t mean they are being sly!!!

sorry, but I'm still agreeing with Hula.

My DD, as I previously said has a lot of toys. in '08, the top present she asked for on her Christmas list was a cardboard box She got one ). In '09, she asked for a big bag of peanuts. I kid you not. Material possessions does not equal spoilt behaviour.

In our house though, if they break toys through neglect or disrespect, then they have to earn money to pay back for the toy that they have not looked after / disrepected. They can do this through chores / selling old toys or saving money from not going to their hobbies. But they do have to pay it back. Harsh maybe, but if they have a lot of toys, I do believe that they have to be taught to appreciate what they have got.

Also, I agree with the not buying presents / toys all year round. My girls get tons at Christmas mostly, but also birthday, but very little during the year. If they desperately want something during the year, then they need to save up for it through the three methods listed above.

My daughter is by no means an angel, don't get me wrong - she is willful and stubborn, and I know her failings, but she is not spoilt, despite having absolutely loads of toys. Again, I maintain that it is the way they are brought up rather than the amount of possessions that counts.

exactly, hula

It's frankly bizarre reasoning

imo,

being spoilt is being ungrateful or unappreciative of what you have or are given.

this can be of material things or in respect to the attention given to you by others.

although, i do believe it is in a (young) child's nature to be a bit like that anyway.

Sorry Cirr havine spent my whole working life teaching/working with primary age kids I can afford to be ungenerous. As lovely as they are many kids can work the system, I had a sister who much as I love her was very clever at smiling sweetly when needed.

I have to say Hula it does sound as if your dd doesn't really have to "ask"if she already has everything.

I hope Hula your dd continues to be as you describe her over the following years. I guess it's still early days. There is a danger the longer she becomes used to such a lifestyle the less she'll appreciate it.I also hope you can keep this lifestyle up for her her whole life as she's going to come down to earth with a bit of a bump if she ends up unable to fund the lifestyle she's used to.

well I hope you haven't worked with my child Mila. My parents also spent their working lives teaching kids and so did all their friends and not one of them would have the cynical view you express

and no one I know who teaches or works with kids would credit a child this age with being able to want a toy and deliberately NOT ask for it as a ploy for getting it. I simply don't believe it

Hula, aren't you also a teacher?!