Parenting skill is the key to all behavioural issues

[hobbgoblin]

Discuss!

Whether you call it old fashioned discipline, modern behaviour management...whatever you call it...good boundaries, clarity and consistency will almost without fail 'cure' even the most badly behaved child.

Oblomov, since you are feeling so down, would it be worth looking at your local children's centre to find parenting classes? Might help you to find out how to change things for the better. Friends of mine did this and are much happier as a result.

There is no doubt in my mind that children are not born a blank slate - you cannot mold every child into the same set of norms by the same parenting. Of course parenting is important - but different children respond differently.

The most challenging of dd's friends has the most consistently firm parents - and thank goodness for that. And you can definitley see how it has reigned in her wildness to some extent.

I find discipline very difficult and I just don't know what I would do with a really challenging child - I really don't think we could cope. But dd just isn't naughty and is very disapproving of naughtiness in others (she can be challenging in other ways - extreme stubbornness for example). I have no idea where that comes from she has just always been like that.

IMO, dc don't need to be SN to be very challenging, unless you just define SN to include 'very challenging', which I think is becoming the trend. And if that gets the family some help, that's a good thing, but if it labels the child indefinitley, maybe not.

If 'good' parenting can't 'cure' challenging behaviour - is this by definition a sn? Discuss.

My sister was a very challenging child - our GP said 'she's not hyperactive, she just acts as if she is'! My mother managed her fine until the teenage years were she got really stroppy and ended up going off the rails in a v. bad way, although luckily never involved with crime or drugs (although many of her 'friends' were).

I was more, um, naturally inclined to pursue conventional success at school and keep my teenage rebellion for areas that wouldn't damage me. Same parent, different children.

Luckily my sister came good in the end and is a brilliant adult who makes far more of a positive difference in the world than I do. But it was a long hard road to get there, and fairly terrifying for my mother.

Think divorce and my father's lack of interest in us had a much bigger impact on my sister than me, though, so I suppose parenting did play a part. A. because she was younger B. because although he was pretty useless all round, he was definitely less bothered about her than me.

Apart from the obvious things that we know are 'bad behaviour' ie hitting, being very mean, breaking things etc. Do you all think that perhaps we expect too much from our kids? We want them to behave as mini adults rather than kids.

I don't have the answers and I struggle to know if I am being too strict / too lenient. Some of the behaviours I react to, and feel the need to tell them off for etc aren't actually 'bad' but annoying or irritating.

I wonder if this is a side effect of children not playing outside anymore - ?

I was the typical good girl when I was little but I used to go off with my friends and have all sorts of 'bad behaviour' adventures - like pulling flowers out of gardens, knocking on doors and running away - playing in empty houses - throwing stones at windows (in derelict houses of course) etc - lots of scope for adventure and boundary testing away from the home. My parents were none the wiser. I was still the good girl they thought I was.

all children are different - thats a given. what works with one - may not work with another and all our children have different influences from schools, other adults, family, clubs M&T groups etc.

that said, i think that one cannot absolve oneself from the fact that your parenting does make a difference. You work out what is best for you.

I need sleep. i Need it - i cannot function without it - its a real big deal - i cannot martyr myself on this one. knowing that if i don't get sleep i would be a totally shitty parent, i did everything i could to get it.

walking and running and playing - walking 30 mins to my mothers one way - then stopping there for a bit then walking 40 mins to nans the other way - stopping there for a bit then 15 mins home. Finding a big hill and playing aeroplanes - so they would run down the big hill and have to climb back up it again.

anything to knacker out the child - so i could sleep - however the byproduct of my genius thought process was that we spent loads of time together and we were outdoors a lot - which helped him and i bond - not my original primary objective.

as i have got older i tell my children that they live in a matriarchy.

i firmly believe that humans are basically animals. I am alpha female - dh is alpha male. I rule. i can be nice to my cubs, but they don't mistake that i rule.

i do not pander. if they fellover (non serious whingey scrape) the stock phrase was " i;ve had bigger cuts on mi arse"

if they brought home scribbly pictures - the ones you know as a mum they have not tried - i binned them. The good ones however , were framed and put on the wall in the living room. - its a balance. no pandering.

crying and whinging - don't get.

please and thank you - does get

We eat together at the table and talk. I hate this thing that some people have of not talking whilst eating. its the best time to get everyone together and ask how their day is.

Everyone has chores - not just the kids. Kids should have chores. even if they don't do it properly. my Nephew aged 5 came to my house for sunday dinner with his family and loved washing up afterwards. I have a dishwasher - totally not the point - that kid enjoyed having ME there to praise him. Enjoyed being indistrious and helping - enjoyed getting wet, enjoyed completing a task enjoyed the bubbles. That i stuck em in the dishwasher when he left was not the point.

i don't give in - as alpha female i have to keep my place in the pack and letting them walk all over me to get what they want wasn't going to keep my place in the pecking order.

i didn't let them watch the telly they wanted all the time to get them off my back. They could only watch stuff we would all enjoy. there is comprimise even in telly.

i firmly believed that my children ought to know that we didn't have oodles of money. i didn't get loans for xmas, santa never ever ever bought the presents. we did - fairy dust makes it work in the workshop doncha know. but the kids knew they couldn't have everything. they may have wanted loads but they never asked. they got a financial limit and as they got older they weighed the pros and cons of what to get for that amount (still do).

i see lots and lots of parents getting loans and getting their kids everything hey want

plastic shit today that will be broken and in the bin by february - that is some major pandering.

"no" is a word i say - and mean.

medical problems withstanding - i do not pander to food tug of war. if they are hungry they will eat. they mised breakfast and ask for a biscuit - erm...hard shit mate, should have eaten your breakfast. they learned that one fast. kids dont starve off losing one meal, they don't die if they eat sweets either.

snack - eat fruit

bored? - wash dishes.

boys IME - work better with routine and like to be helpful and industrious. fake painting garden walls with bubbles from washing up liquid was something that kept my son aged 3 occupied for ages.

kids will not tidy their room whilst you are sat on your big fat arse in front of the telly - get up and sit with them in their room - giving them encouragement - read a magazine and have a brew.

mobile phones are not essential for safety IMO, and will be removed and shouldn.;t be given to anyone under 12.

don't kill yourself for your kids - they won't appreciate it.

work all day get home at 6 cook tea get ready for brownies go to brownies - help out at brownies come home get changed, do homework, bedtime routine - shower , pjs, book, wash the dishes from dinner , tidy up a bit - fuck me you haven't sat down since you got in and its now 10pm. - do that 4 times a week and you are no use to anyone.

you are allowed time to not be a mum. mum is one of my roles as is wife. but i am me

i like to go out for a drink and have a dance, i like certain tv programmes, i like time to read a book and my time is as important as dh's time. my time is as important as the kids time ( although not as often!) so i am allowed to do things for me. it makes me a better mum.

however that doesn't justify having the telly on all day whilst you mumsnet and plonk them there throwing crisp at them hoping they dont bother you. It;s a balance - give them your time - but they must respect that you have your own time too.

rain will not melt children. wrap them up and jump in puddles. no one is too old to puddle jump.

Routine is key - you can break it occasionally but kids need sleep. there is a bedtime and a routine and stick to it.
Don't give sugar snacks before bed
Don't have a telly in the room

arrrrrrrrrrrgh - it seems like common sense to me - do not stimulate the child at bedtime DUHHHHHHHHHHHH.

I think it's obvious that loving, consistent parenting with firm boundaries doesn't always make a perfect child. Asise from SN issues, children are different, some are very stubborn, some are very sulky or whatever, and of course they all have off days where they can make you look like the crappest parent on Earth.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to parent in the best way we can according to what is known and what is discovered. I think this recent news about being both loving and firm apparently being good for kids is interesting, particularly as it was reported so few people do it. It's what I have always tried to do and I will carry on.

I do think the trend that I see among friends for not saying no to DC/not intervening in bad behaviour is harmful. That is not to say that it is the reason behind every badly behaved child, but it does baffle me why you wouldn't make it clear as day to your child what is OK behaviour and what is not OK. To me that's just essential information, like learning to feed yourself or learning to talk. It seems cruel to me if your child whacks someone in the face and you won't even say "No, that's naughty, if you do that again I will have to take you home" and follow it through - or whatever version of that you can live with - how else are they going to learn how to get on in society?

I think children actually need to be told "no" to help them find their way and, though it would shock some of my friends, they also greatly appreciate being able to identify what is "naughty", and that word is NOT banned in our house as it is in some. It's not about shouting at DS or humiliating him, it's just explaining what is not on so he can learn to behave in a way that's acceptable to others and won't make him into a pariah. I do get very frustrated with parents who seem to think it is abusive to limit their DCs' behaviour.

I am so like Custardo, it is frightening. I am exactly the same.
Totally disagree with helloall. We are too soft on kids these days. They rule. Not in my house/life they shouldn't.

I think nature does play a part.

My children are both considered to be 'good' children: do well at school, rarely in trouble, keen to try out lots of new things, etc. We have always tried to be supportive and encouraging and to help them find positive ways of feeling good about themselves.

But our son is lacking in self-esteem and easily put down by other people. He's a natural target for bullies, as he's quite thin and not strong enough to thump them back (which, I'm afraid, is often the way that boys ward off bullies when they're playing outside adult supervision); or able to mask his reactions and nervousness.

After years of trying various things we put up our hands and sought professional help from a children's/teens' counselling service via a GP referral system.

Obviously there is something in his genetic makeup that our parenting can't overcome--not without outside help, at least.

Custardo--I LOVE your alpha female analogy!

I love Custy too. If only she were older, I'd adopt her as my 'other mother'!

Someone once said to me that you can't be the perfect mother for every stage of childhood. The sort of person who is naturally 'good' at babyhood will be very different from the sort of person who is naturally 'good' at toddlerhood and so and and so on. (I was definitely better at dealing with ds when he was a baby and toddler than pre-school age - had endless patience with him when he was tiny, then got frustrated and had to start counting to ten to keep my own temper when he was older.)

Just when you think you've got the little tinkers figured out, and everything's running nicely, they go and change...

Yeah, the little devils...

ds is currently trying to act as if he's me/his teacher. Telling me to 'zip it' or issuing instructions. This is not encouraged but it is kind of amusing so I haven't cracked down on it as I probably should.

I actually think we worry too much about this. There is so much pressure (from books, bloody Supernanny and similar TV programmes, judgmental friends etc) to be a "perfect parent" and heaven help you if your child turns out to be naughty or disruptive because it's YOUR FAULT.

Children are people. They have their own characteristics - a mixture of good and bad. Yes, my DS1 is a stroppy, argumentative, cheeky little so and so but hell, so's DH. But he's also a loving, kindhearted child who when he saw one of his classmates crying on the way to school the other day, ran upto her to give her a hug.

Our children are not robots. We are not perfect. Yes, we all know incredibly smug parents who have read a few fucking manuals and suddenly they are experts judging everyone else's kids and other people parenting skills.

I sometimes shout at my kids, DS1 has even had the odd smack, I lose my temper. I do all those things because I get tired, frustrated, sick of repeating myself. I AM NOT PERFECT. But I would die for my children and run to the ends of the earth for them. And they know it.

Oblomov's post made me sad when she said that she wished she had never had children. I think she is being too hard on herself. Most kids are naughty, stroppy, and badly behaved at times. It doesn't mean they're going to grow up to be axe murderers.

cornflakemum agree with everything you said.
Apart from a very small % of children with medical/mental health issues, it's down to parenting.

Agree with Tryharder.

Cool
I have 3 great well behaved kids
I'm not reading anymore, this of course is true
i'm a GREAT mother as opposed to the lucky one people keep telling me I am

Sorry Tryharder. I can so associate with yours and edams posts.
I do love my boys. But I guess I had rose tinted specs as to how family life was going to be for me.
That kind of thing isn't said on MN very often. Being a child centred parenting site, and all.
I do get alot of pleasure from ds's. But I think I and dh were both happier when it was just the two of us.

Maybe I will regrte this post soon.

And I don't even bother with ideal parenting, the likes of supernanny etc. I am not worrried about being perfect. Maybe I am too hard on myself. I think it is just becasue it often feeels like the repeted monotony of telling a child off. and you wonder where the fun is, for balance.

This is just a stage. I am sure. "These things will pass", Oblomov reminds herself.
I love the baby stage. and early toddler. its the late toddler , pre-school and school starting that I have found harder. We can't all be good at every stage, as you say.

Don't worry about me. sorry I made you sad.

Although I do agree with Tryharder it suddenly crossed my mind that maybe my style of parenting is clear to me because I think I had a good role model in my mum. Didn't have an easy childhood - but did have a happy and fun one! Felt loved. It was full of silliness and goofyness. My mum got stressed tired etc - was unreasonable - but were were fine with it. Myself siblings have all got good values and we really enjoy each other.

I can understand how if you don't have a blueprint, you might worry to an unnecessarily harsh degree about how you are parenting. Especially if you had much unhappiness in your own childhood.

My greatest worry would be for my kids to grow up in a cold and sterile environment - because I would hate that myself.

Hello, I had a fab blueprint. It just doesn't work with my son.

Oblomov, have you thought about approaching your local children's centre for parenting classes? (Think it was you I suggested this to on another thread.)

I really like what custardo says about having time for yourself. I think that is very important, particularly as a SAHM where finding some 'me' time is hard. I used to come home from work and flop on the sofa with cat and book to switch off, but having been near the sofa all day, it doesn't seem so relaxing any more. My home has become where I 'work' so I find it hard to switch off here. And there's nowhere else I can go in my pjs

I also think there is WAY too much information about parenting styles and their outcomes. My mum had Dr Spock and her own experiences and instinct. She is shocked by all the studies/reports/manual/tv progs etc dedicated to the 'best' way of parenting.

I would love to recreate my upbringing, I remember my childhood as very happy and have a good relationship with my parents and sister now. When I talk to my mum though, she remembers all the times she shouted, she smacked, she was fed up and miserable, she was stressed etc etc but I can't really recall any of these moments. Only the happy bits. She wasn't perfect all the time, but I always knew I was loved and we had lots of fun. Maybe that's what counts.

Oh and agree we all have different stages which we prefer parenting. I really did NOT like the baby stage at all, which shocked and upset me and made the first 18 mths extremely challenging. I am much happier now they can talk and communicate. But still a little raw from the early years.

penona. other mums do the school run in their pj's. its only on Mn thta its a crime.
Edam, thank you . I am going to check this out.

Hope it helps Oblomov - might give you a new approach or even help you to realise actually you are pretty darn good!

Nature vrs Nurture

Parenting influences behaviour up to a point.

Not just parenting either - siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, CM's, nursery staff, next door neighbour, neighbourhood children, Uncle Tom Cobbley.....so many other people in a child's life, all have influence on the nurture side of things but nature/genetics etc - well that's a done deal in the womb.

Yeah, but environment affects how your genes are expressed. So it's not as simple as nature v. nuture - each affects the other.