Parenting skill is the key to all behavioural issues

[hobbgoblin]

Discuss!

Whether you call it old fashioned discipline, modern behaviour management...whatever you call it...good boundaries, clarity and consistency will almost without fail 'cure' even the most badly behaved child.

Agh, I was stalling because I struggle to convey what I mean. I can do so in practical terms but writing concisely about it is tough - hence no book! Anyhow, I'm not eloquent enough...

To give an example, boundaries for one child could mean simply redirecting misbehaviour, i.e. they bite, they are warned, they repeat and thus experience a consequence, i.e. punishment. Over time they learn not to bite.

Another child may need boundaries in place that deal with his many strengths, for example he may be very articulate, and intelligent and as such he may need boundaries that remove that pressure to be perfect and competent...in that way, the family needs to be boundaried iyswim - they need to allow time for failure and coping with lack of success, etc.

Yet another child may need boundaries on expression (am thinking of my own DS here who at the moment is being very histrionic). Our boundaries are a balance between self expression and over indulging the melancholy. I'm struggling because I tend toward unfettered openness, honesty and self expression but I understand that this is not ideal for him.

Am I explaining a little?

Yes, thanks. It is interesting because I think that one person's boundaries are another's strictness and another's laxness. It depends on the parents' ideas of what is acceptable behaviour. Obviously these are all different. I think broadly speaking what is considered unacceptable is often connected to respect for others and oneself, but I'm not sure how much we really influence our children.

I once read that when you have your first child you think it's all nurture and then you have your second and you know it's all nature. I think the best parenting is to love your child unconditionally, and crucially make sure they KNOW this and to teach them mannners.

No, the OP is false.

if 2 toddlers do something naughty and

• one toddler is told to go and sit on teh naughty step, and does so (ie accepts the punishment). The child does not repeat the misdeed, and the parent congratulates themselves that the discipline has worked.

• the other child is told in exactly the same way to go and sit on teh naughty step. S/he bounces up, banging on the wall, and escalating the bad behaviour.

2 parents - identical discipline method - identical parenting skill level - 2 different outcomes, because chidlren are different.

But that isn't identical parenting skill at all. Part (most?) of the skill is surely knowing how to best deal with your child?

but yu wouldn't give up with the naughty step just like that would you?

All that says is that it may take longer with toddler 2, and possibly a different way of setting that particular boundary. It wouldn't automatically mean they needed fish oils or something.

It's very easy to watch other people and think 'that's where they are going wrong. But that could be a misapprehension.

My sister was a brilliant nanny - fun, firm, supremely confident, managed a family including baby twins + 4yo with DS + 6yo and made it look incredibly easy. (Even though the mother travelled for work and was often away overnight for up to a week at a time.) Everyone had fun, everything got done on time and in the right way. And she wasn't a millionth as irritating as Mary Poppins, either.

Then she had her own dd... and she stumbles just as much as any other mother. Think my niece was about a year old when sister turned to me and said, God, everyone said it's harder when it's your own... My point being, that my sister's child-rearing skills are excellent but that doesn't make her Perfect Mum Of The Year. And my niece, while gorgeous, is certainly not an angelic child who is always perfectly behaved!

Equally, my childminder when I was little was fantastic. Again, fun but solid and stable, could rely on her absolutely. She was brilliant. And very strict about manners/behaviour, all the things that people think of as boundaries.

She has two sons. One is OK but the other became a heroin addict. (Thankfully now clean but there were many years of torment when he was in a very scary place indeed.)

Oh, and counter-intuitively, the son who has always been OK is the one with the violent, deadbeat dad, who ended up in prison and thankfully disappeared from their lives when her boy was quite small.

The son who became an addict, thieving and involved in all sorts of other bad stuff is the result of her second marriage, to a lovely man who is a great father to both kids.

You'd expect that the ds1 might have been affected by exposure to domestic violence when small (and during a crucial phase of brain development), to the loss of his father, had issues about adapting to a stepfather. But he turned out OK.

Ds2, who grew up in a stable loving home with firm but kind parenting, was the one who went off the rails.

That is very interesting edam. Even leaving traumatic recent years aside for a moment, my DC's behaviour is hugely varied and often terrible despite my successes with parent coaching other families. It is a concern of mine when it comes to my own personal theorising on the subject.

That said, I am not as good at being boundaried in my own family because my emotional attachment/time limitedness/tiredness, etc. gets in the way. If I were as consistent as I get clients to be when I'm watching them like a bit of a hawk then maybe my theory would be proven, perfectly at home. Thing is, emotional attachment, tiredness and so on is all part and parcel.

So, to what extent can good behaviour outcomes withstand imperfect application of [what could be] perfect theory?

Is the degenration of good, perfect behaviour proportionate to the degree of deviation from the model I have (sort of) described? (That would be the boundaried, consitent stuff I speak of)

Edam, could the DS who became drug addicted suffered from 'over compensation' for the previous trauma or is that unlikely?

I dunno but I have a theory that the children of psychologists and psychiatrists are often really screwed up.

Am sure there must be plenty of examples of the children of child-care gurus going bad. (Although I'm sure your children are lovely and will be fine, don't want to worry you or anything...)

Actually offspring of children's authors ofen have a tough time - Enid Blyton documentary this week, Christoper Milne, Kenneth Graham etc. etc. etc.

oops unfortunate cross post, grin was at your previous post.

Would think over-compensation is unlikely, my former childminder is a very stable, loving and consistent mother with strict rules about behaviour. As was her second husband. (I've known her almost all my life, from early childhood to present day, so am not guessing on the basis of a vague acqaintance or anything - we treat her sons as our 'cousins'.)

I have twins so am always interested in the nature v nurture debate. I can see already (at 2 yo) that they need different styles of disciplining/boundaries etc - but implementing that is hard as of course I have a favoured style as well!

edam - maybe your friend's son could have been alot worse. Perhaps her parenting style did in fact help. And maybe it still will, sometime in the future. Is so hard to see when parenting takes a back seat and your innate 'nature' etc takes over as a shaping force. (not that he was innately bad, or whatever, just it can't all be your friend's fault, he has made his own choices..)

It's okay! I'm inclined to agree with you. Better not author anything though eh?

If I were ever to conduct any sort of study I think I would look at cross referencing with parental profession!

If there is one thing I utterly believe though, it is that no person is inherently bad. Therefore, parenting is not necessarily the whole picture.

One can also be severly hampered in delivery of accepted ideals in parenting standards so theory means nothing when disempowered by personal emotional affliction, I guess.

Boundaries good. Individual children need different boundaries around different things, in different environments, in different families etc etc. If this were a scientific experiment surely there would be too many variables to draw any real conclusions. . . ?

However, sometimes 'good' behaviour is like beauty - all in the eye of the beholder.

penona, he is now clean thank heavens, and the father of some lovely kids himself. But for many years it was extremely bad indeed.

hobb, 'severly hampered in delivery of accepted ideals in parenting standard' is me to a tee!

That didn't make sense. I don't believe individuals are 'bad' as such. I do believe parents have great power in shaping the individual and their behaviour patterns but other relationships do so too.

lots of x-post

Edam, me too!

Penona, I take it that one dc responds more successfully to your own preferred style than the other so what do you do with the child that has different needs and how easy is it to adapt?

It's really hard to adapt. My DD is more like me. She wants to please, to be liked, to fit in. If I say 'mummy doesn't like being hit, makes her sad' she stops. Maybe gives me a cuddle even. Perhaps does it again a few days later when she forgets but doesn't take long for her to realise and stop again. DS is a mystery to me. He doesn't respond much to being ignored, and appears not to listen to anything I say. In the above example he has just carried on hitting me (or whatever) until I have removed myself from the situation.

Of course this is just a tiny example that happened this week. When they were babies, he just wanted tons of cuddles all the time, and she was v hard work - always crying, never happy. As toddlers, I find her easier, she responds better to reason etc. I find him baffling!!!

I think you expect your children to be like you, and it's a surprise when they don't respond as you would, even accounting that they are a child. It is a big challenge for me, to parent them appropriately and individually, while being consistent - since the same techniques might not work.

I read an interesting book about psychology and genetics where the author argued that parents who treat their children differently (which is all of us, really, however much we protest) are actually reacting to their children's individual genotypes.

Can't remember the details now though. But it was interesting at the time!

He also made the obvious point that even though siblings have the same parents, doesn't mean they receive the same parenting or same experiences - simply by virtue of being a year older/younger the same event will have a very different impact, even before you even start to add in different personalities.

Helloall has a valid point there about the MANY variables.

Perhaps intuitive parenting is the way to go and the best thing we can do is to hone our intuition and empathetic skills.

The other book I will never write is on instinctive/intuitve parenting.

My main skills are not derived from my training (though that has provided the tools) but more from my intuition and instinct. This is a major reason why I fail a lot more with my own child rearing: I cannot see the wood for the trees when it is my DC I am supposed to be responding to effectively.

relationship where one party has the authority, both parties hold opinions, and all learn from experience and communication?

hobgoblin is v interesting how you find your professional interacting with children so different from your personal. (Not sure what you do - some kind of family coaching??). For me, more interesting than your initial qn.

I think this is the rub with parenting. It IS easy (or easier) to see what is wrong with something you are emotionally detached from e.g a friend's parenting 'errors'. It is almost impossible to view your own parenting with such impartial detachment. Try as I do, I cannot critically 'review' my day as I used to when I worked. I also cannot be as consistent with my parenting as I was when I worked, as I cannot detach myself emotionally from it. Which is in the long run is a good thing I guess?

I am with penona here.
Ds1 is so very different to me. I was a child who wanted to please. Was never any trouble. happy and confident. Never smacked becasue was never naughty. Its true, I tell you ! My mum parented my two older brothers differently becasue we were all different. But we we good children, and would never have dreamed of answering back to our mum.
I wanted to re-create this, becasue |I feel my mum did a grand job.
But society has changed. NAd I do not have 3 children. Ds1 is like me, diverse, black and white. does not respond to rewards and punishments.
his behaviour is a nightmare. nothing major. just rude, answering back, stroppy five year old stuff.
He never gets any better. I calmly talk about what good behaviour is, and then after a couple of days it reverts to type. It never gets consistenly better.
And I wonder is this his natural way, that I simply can't adjust ?
I smacked him a handful of times then dh agreed to stop, becasue it wasn't right and it wasn't working. Once I put a drop of fairy liquid on my finger and in his mouth to wash it out, for being rude. But apparently that is a big MN no no, so we never did that again. Dh feels that all his trying , all the different attention withdrawl, early to bed, talking to ds about it, none of it works. and he knows not how to parent anymore. I feel the same way too.
Like he doesn't hear me. doesn't get me.
And then I wonder about myself. I have started many threads on Mn over the years. But maybe I am not TRUELY LISTENING to the advice. Maybe I am subconsiously blocking it out. Becuase i don't appear to have learnt anything.

Dh and I sat there last night and we both agreed that we wished we'd never had children. This is not a depressed re-action. We have said it to eachother before. In good times and bad.

So yes, like penona says, it is very hard to adapt to eht child you have.