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different practices in different countries

104 replies

codswallop · 25/05/2003 12:35

My confessional booths abput sterilisation and microwaves have made me realise how different things are done abroad..

Is it true that the "Europeans" never warm milk or wind? This is what I have been told..

Any other different things>

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
Ghosty · 26/05/2003 11:34

It's the sound of every mumsnetter on the planet packing up her home and family and stampeding towards Denmark ...

sprout · 26/05/2003 11:41

Ghosty & dkdad - our posts crossed. I'll join you in emigrating to Denmark. Did someone mention 11 months' maternity leave?!

LIZS · 26/05/2003 11:42

I'd forgotten about the Vitamin D drops. Actually probably forgot to give them more often than not but paediatrician here was shocked they were not given in UK. May be to do with the higher level of bottlefeeding as it is added to formula.

Ghosty · 26/05/2003 11:49

And the "private room for bed with partner" in the hospital, sprout ... I so clearly remember the Hattie Jakes lookalike that marched around the ward at the end of each visiting time kicking out not only the visitors but the dads too ...
Somehow we need to get the best bits of this thread together and make a brave new world for Maternity ...

WideWebWitch · 26/05/2003 12:04

Blimey, completely agree about stampeding to Denmark Ghosty, doesn't it sound fab? Naming the baby within 1/2 hour - phew, what pressure! And no gas and air, blimey! The best bits from other countries do sound like the post natal doulas, the maternity leave and the letting dads stay bits. Agree, fascinating thread.

morocco · 26/05/2003 13:14

oh I want to move to Denmark

Now I realise how ignorant I am about childcare etc in Morocco and ds was born here! Obviously I am far too expat. Here's the little I've come across but bear in mind that it's only true for the big city - I think life in the villages is going to be more or less the opposite in many ways.

Birth is v different if you go private or public. Private is prob a lot more intervention (after all - you pay for everything) and it's assumed you will have an epidural. Once admitted apparently it's flat on back time with legs in stirrups for the birth itself. Noone has ever heard of tens machines - mine caused great amusement/consternation! But public can be quite horrific - a friend of mine told me about her experience (this was 20 years ago but I'm not sure how much things have changed) - she gave birth in a room full of women in labour - before her dd arrived she'd seen several other babies born and one was a still birth. After birth, all babies were put on a communal table and not tagged. In fact even my ds was not tagged - luckily he was definitely mine as about 20 shades lighter than all the other babies.

Post natal care doesn't really exist at all but if you want you can pay to go to the obs/have a midwife come to the house. It isn't common as far as I'm aware.

We follow France for vaccinations and also give vit d - I don't bother with the vit d myself and this is very radical. I read that it is needed for babies with darker skin as they are not as efficient at making vit d from sunshine. No vit k at birth and I have no idea what his apgar score was either.

I had to pay £100 to register ds birth at the British Embassy!!!!!!

Sugar in everything here and also some salt. Bottled water for bottles - I think most people warm it but I don't. Poor ds has no idea that food can be warm. Food can be given in bottles too.

To make sure food is nice and clean its recommended you wash it in bleach first.

Don't leave the house with newborns or something dire will happen. If you have to go out, wrap child in 500 blankets even in the middle of a heatwave. If you don't (guess who didn't bother?) everyone you pass will stop you to comment on how cold your ds must be and offer helpful advice.

The best things though are people's attitudes to little kids - they love them and give them loads of attention. In restaurants, you can hand your baby over to the waiters who will amuse him/her while you eat dinner. Ds is kissed every day by loads of people. He thinks he's the most special baby in the entire world. and he's called 'le petit prince' - aaaw cute!

GRMUM · 26/05/2003 13:23

Ha ha Morocco we have the 500 blanket thing here too!!! Greek mums also get very worked up about their children sweating-as soon as they are at all sweaty the children have their vests and top clothes changed.

sprout · 26/05/2003 13:28

Ah, Morocco, I'd forgotten the £100 price tag for the privilege of registering dd's birth at the British consulate (cost about £5 for the German bit of her nationality!) to say nothing of the £80 or so bill for her passport...complete with compulsory passport photo, with eyes open(!), aged 4wks. But at that stage I was willing to do anything to be able to show her off to her adoring grandparents.

oxocube · 26/05/2003 13:37

Have just caught this thread - fascinating. I will post later this afternoon about my experiences of Holland and giving birth here (good imo) but now must dash to pick up kids from school. Just heard last night that MIL is coming to visit for a week TODAY (also good but been in blind panic cleaning and cooking hence not checking Mumsnet )

Ghosty, you've got me worried now!! Do I really post so often that one day's absence is noticable ?

mmm · 26/05/2003 13:47

Having lived in France and now Belgium, and before that Britain but with no children, I think you just take what you like from each culture and don't fret if your child still sucks bottles at 5 or sleeps in your bed till whatever - you just realise that everywhere has different notions of "rightness" and that's cool but so is your way. You just have to believe in yourself and it'll all come out in the wash.

pupuce · 26/05/2003 14:50

Sweden has 12 months maternity leave and so does Canada but in Canada it is the government that pays for it and it equals (I think) to what you get if you are unemployed.... but your employer must keep your job (or equivalent) open for you.

Belgians take vitamins supplement during pregnancy (and they have a better diet than the Brits IMO), they get scanned regularely, they get a vaginal examination at 37/38 weeks... to see how's everything downthere !!!!! And sweep (that is a form of induction) a woman if it is what would be "best" for whom you may ask !
Babies do get vit D and iron.
I am not sure about epidural rate (and I am looking for the official info) as most of the babies I know in Belgium (about 10) were born without an epidural.... so whilst I am sure the rate is high.... not sure it is that high.

Yes school dinners are common in Belgium.

As for some differences in childbirth and BF (here are the striking ones)
Brazil has a 38% cesarean rate with US at 24.4% and UK at 22%.... France is 18 and Sweden (in 98) was 12%

Episiotomies.... UK is very low with 13%, US 39% and France 60% and again is 6% (maybe the Swedes don't know how to stitch ?)

Epidural : UK is 33%, France is 63% (hence I doubt Berlgium is 90%) - in both F and UK cases I thought the numbers were higher actually!

VBAC : Uk is very low with 8%, USA is 16% and Quebec is 33%!

As for BF at birth.... here is what I have
VERY high - Sweden
92% - Switzerland
85% - Germany
72% - Holland
69% - UK
64% - USA
52% - France
and at 4 months here is the EXCLUSIVE BF rate
69%- Sweden
50% - Switzerland (actually that is at 3 months)
35% - Holland
28% - UK

I am still collating data and if you know some official figures/websites - please let me know

sprout · 26/05/2003 15:09

Pupuce, you may be right about the epidural figures in Belgium. The ones I was quoted and passed on were perhaps for some of the individual hospitals here in Brussels, rather than the national average. I know of 1 birth here without epidural, 15 or so births with, and 5 caesarians (of which 2 were breech and 2 were due to advanced pre-enclampsia) - but this isn't a scientific survey, just a group of friends!

pupuce · 26/05/2003 15:16

Most of the babies I know where born at either Cavell or Baron Lambert and I don't think any of these (except 1) had an epidural.... But they are private hospitals so I am sure you can get it on demand

oxocube · 26/05/2003 15:47

I came to NL when I was almost 6 months pregnant and before that, lived in Switz for 4 yrs where I had dd. In Switz, I was practically laughed out the door for asking for a homebirth. The only way would be to employ a private midwife (nearest 55 kms away in Geneva) and even then, as she spoke no English and at the time, my French was really weak, that wasn't ever going to work. In Switz, most women book into private clinics (paid for by private insurance!) and stay a minimum of 5 days. Pain relief is the norm and lots of women opt for epidural, with planned cs also being quite common. Gas and air is used "to calm down hysterical women, not as pain relief" (My gynae!!!) The clinics range in quality from 'pretty damn posh' to 'wow, extremely posh'!!! Sadly, it wasn't my cup of tea and I discharged myself on the third day.

Holland is very different. Home births are considered the norm rather than the exception and those who opt for hospital birth usually come home after 4 - 6 hours, like our domino in UK. Most births are without pain relief - in fact, unless you specify you would like it, your midwife will automatically assume you don't want any! Epidurals are possible but usually for medical emergency. My friend who had a previous emergency cs after a 30 hr labour in UK assumed she would have a planned cs but the staff in the hospital were quite happy for her to try a vaginal delivery, which she accomplished with no pain relief.

Yoga and relaxation preparation seem quite common, and there are parenting courses although I never went on one. B/f is the norm but Dutch women seem to stop around 4 months. I fed ds2 until 18 months which was considered good but unusual by baby doctor/midwive. Here, you go to clinic every 2 weeks for first few months and after that the gaps get wider between each appointment. One appointment you see the baby doctor, the next, the health visitor and it alternates like this until child is about 4 yrs old. The primary schools (from 4 yrs) arrange for a medical for every child within a few months of starting school to check for anything doctor may have missed.

Nursery schools and day care are very over subscribed with huge waiting lists (some of 2 years) and state ones are not free over a certain income. Education is very 'child centred' and reading and writing begin in group 3 or the year in which the child is 7 yrs old. My limited experience is that Dutch kids soon 'catch up' to UK kids despite beginning formal schooling later, but are much more sporty. Every child I know in our village goes to at least 1 sports club/ practice a week, most go to more.

In Holland, I think the family is considered to be VERY important and kids are given a lot of attention (maybe over indulged??) when they are small. The Dutch are pretty tolerant in general and kids play out in the streets like we used to when we were small: everyone looks out for each others kids.

Finally, I've noticed lots of healthy foods in shops ie no added sugar, no added salt, but loads of kids seem to eat lots of lollipops and sweeties but most have good teeth! Genetic? Oh and licorice (or 'drop'as it is called) is the nations favourite sweet and appears in all sorts of guises (yeuch!)

oxocube · 26/05/2003 15:48

sorry, that was horribly long.

lucy123 · 26/05/2003 16:38

I´m off to Denmark too!

Maternity leave in Spain is 16 weeks and the pay depends on yur social security contributions (minimum about €700 a month - doesn´t go far.)

Also Pupuce, I´m surprised you don´t have b/f rate for Spain - I bet it´s low. There are no breastfeeding counsellors in the hospitals and Spanish women tend to have their mothers with them (and do what they say to a large extent). When dd aged 3 hours refused to have a little sleep, the mother of the woman in the next bed tried very hard to get me to give her a bottle. There are breast is best type posters everywhere though.

Dummies are v common here too. People are often surprised when they notice that dd sucks her thumb instead.

Also kids play in the street. But oxocube, I must point out that they do in some areas of the UK too.

codswallop · 26/05/2003 18:34

we play out in the street every day - Mind you ds1(4) cycles to school!

OP posts:
codswallop · 26/05/2003 19:50

This is the most interesting threasd I have read since grape - gate
Thanks for replying all you globe trotters!

(mind you still concerned abour public health care in morocco!)

OP posts:
dkdad · 26/05/2003 21:31

More Danish stuff (told you I'd remember more):

Strollers/buggies etc regarded as 'ok for travelling, I suppose'. Everybody uses prams - the bigger the better. Some justification given the cold temperatures we have and the need to wrap little one in his/her VoksiBag and the Danish tradition of leaving them to sleep outside. But as the pram salesman told me, the Danish pram market is completely unique. At least all buses have space for two prams on them and people will move to let prams on. Shame the supermarkets can't seem to make their aisles wide enough for two prams to pass, though.

Bed clothes are duvets from day one.

No such thing as teething gel, sudocream, handy sachets of calpol or baby nurofen (or much ibroprofen at all, actually). No wonder we hit Boots so hard when we visit the UK.

25% VAT on everything including kids' clothes means we don't really blink at Baby Gap prices either and almost never buy DS's clothes in Denmark but stock up in the UK.

Dummies almost universal until quite late on when kindergarten has a ceremony where the kids all hang them in a tree never to be used again.

Yes we wind, but can't say we've ever bothered to warm milk.

Almost no changing facilities! Those family rooms you get in the UK in the shopping centres are just a godsend!

Concept of creches almost unheard of. Just got one in our fitness centre but highly unusual.

Camomile tea used as a drink from day one even with b/f.

In general health care is good with short waiting times but specialist expertise may be lacking compared to the UK.

Marmite obviously unheard of!

Ghosty · 26/05/2003 21:34

Wot ... no marmite? What are they thinking? Well, I for one have changed my mind ... I can't live somewhere where there is no marmite

steppemum · 27/05/2003 08:19

OK - here goes

Indonesia (used to live there) - almost no health care in the villages so midwives are local granny. Some appalling old wives tales persist, eg new mum musn't drink any liquid so that she will "dry up" quickly after the birth. Also shouldn't eat eggs of chicken (so that's no protein as that is the main source) As a consequence they have pne of the worst mother and baby death rates in the world They all breast feed though, and you can do it anywhere.

Kazakhstan (where I live now) - Oh boy where do I start!!!! Abortion is a standard form or birth control, and some women have had as many as 20. When you are pregnant they will happily give you all sorts of injections for all sorts of things (including vitamins) without telling you what they are. On your due date you are addmitted to hospital and induced. No pain relief and no natural birth, the more intervention the better. Labour ward is not private, row of ladies all given birth at once. No fathers allowed. The new baby is heavily swaddled, including their head, and remains tightly swaddled until 40 days. Mum stays in hospital for about 10 days, and then no visitor allowed until 40 days. Baby is named on 40th day.
BTW I came back to UK for my ds!!
Immunisations, very efficient, nurse comes to your house the day before so that you don't miss it. Every child have an immunisation passport, so that the immunisation rate must be about 99% The timetanle is the same as UK, but they don'y give MMR, they give measles and mumps, no rubella (don't know if M&M are given together) Baby also has hep b
The general policy is the more intervention the better, the more medical stuff the batter "au naturelle" in anything is considered bizarre. One big exception is breastfeeding. The clinic VERY VERY strongly promotes brestfeeding, and exclusive breastfeeding until 6 months. (and I tell you, these ladies at the clinic are scary, I wouldn't contradict them if I was a local) They give vitamin D, but then there is a very long winter here, and all babies are wrapped in 100 layers, so they don't get any sun.
I just laughed when I read Moroccos, YES 500 blankets, especially woolly hats, and EVERY one thinks they should tell you how to bring up a baby (why isn't he wearing tights inside? - because it's like an oven in here. But his little legs will get so cold. NO, actually, he is sweating. Close the window, there's a baby in the house. Actually, some fresh air is fine. No, he will catch a chill.....)
School, they start at 5 and work in shifts (poor teachers) If you do morning school it is 8am - 12am, and afternoon school is 12-6. In our city there aren't enough schools, so they are doing three shorter shifts, and the last shift finishes at 8pm Imagine that for kindergarten!
People are very child friendly, but the city isn't. I can't get into a single shop with a buggy, they all have a flight of stairs up to the door. I've never seen a ramp anywhere (correction, only at the one small supermarket in town) Everyone lives in flats, and all the flats have stairs, even if there is a lift, you have to go up stairs to the front door. Having said that, I can get to the market with the buggy, and when I come home with baby, buggy and shopping, somebody ALWAYS carries the buggy/shopping upstairs for me. People are very helpful.

Holland (my dh is Dutch) 75% of babies are born at home. You have to decide the name immediately, because you send out birth cards straight away, and everyone is supposed to come and visit you while you Kraamzorger is with you in the first week. When visitors come, you serve them biscuits covered in "mice" little aniseed balls, either pink or blue. And you put up a wooden stork by the front door with a pink or a blue blanket to show the world that a baby has been born!
Oh, and names, everyone has an official name and then a name they use every day, so the official name is Whilhemena Theodora, but she will be called Lisa.
And there are LOADS of SAHMs in Holland

steppemum · 27/05/2003 08:27

also no-one inHolland seems to sterilize (maybe just the ones I've met) And no-one outside the UK seems to have heard of nut allergies (including Dutch, Aussies, Americans, Germans and Canadians that we know here. They all thought I was mad avoiding nuts!!)

Ghosty · 27/05/2003 08:43

Kazakhstan .... wow ... never ever met anyone who lives there .... wow ...
Wouldn't want to give birth there though!!
I spent 11 years of my life in Holland and I never knew that thing about 'official' names ... amazing ...
My brother and his wife had ordered their birth cards before their dd was born and then on the way from the hospital they stopped off at the printers to finalise the name ... we got the card within a week of my niece's birth ... sent to the UK!
Still love this thread!!

suedonim · 27/05/2003 10:46

I'm currently living in Indonesia, Steppemum. Whereabouts were you? We're in hot and polluted Jakarta. We also know folks who've lived in Khazakhstan.

As you say, the maternal mortality rate is terrible, in Indonesia. It's going up instead of down and around one-in-250 women now die in pg/childbirth. My own cook's dd had a stillbirth last week, and a $500 bill for the caesarian. Not easy to pay when you earn $80 a month. The bf rate is dropping, too, down to about 50%, I think. The marketing of formula is very aggressive. Mums think it is 'better' for the baby than bfing, kind of where the UK was 50 or 60 years ago.

Family planning I think is free and Indonesia has successfully implemented a 'Two's Plenty' campaign for smaller families. Children are much more widely spaced than in the UK, usually at least three years apart and often much more.

There is almost no public health system although child vaccinations are supposed to be free. I've seen two babies with a dummy since I've been here and one sucking a thumb. Most babies never wear a nappy, they are carried almost all the time in a simple sling made from a sarong length and very few have a cot (known as a 'baby box'!) to sleep in. Babies wear snow suits and fleece hats, in 90deg temps.

People are very welcoming to children but actual facilities for them are few and far between. Most public loos down't even supply loo paper for adults, let alone a changing room!!

suedonim · 27/05/2003 11:02

I'm currently living in Indonesia, Steppemum. Whereabouts were you? We're in hot and polluted Jakarta. We also know folks who've lived in Khazakhstan.

As you say, the maternal mortality rate is terrible, in Indonesia. It's going up instead of down and around one-in-250 women now die in pg/childbirth. My own cook's dd had a stillbirth last week, and a $500 bill for the caesarian. Not easy to pay when you earn $80 a month. The bf rate is dropping, too, down to about 50%, I think. The marketing of formula is very aggressive. Mums think it is 'better' for the baby than bfing, kind of where the UK was 50 or 60 years ago.

Family planning I think is free and Indonesia has successfully implemented a 'Two's Plenty' campaign for smaller families. Children are much more widely spaced than in the UK, usually at least three years apart and often much more.

There is almost no public health system although child vaccinations are supposed to be free. I've seen two babies with a dummy since I've been here and one sucking a thumb. Most babies never wear a nappy, they are carried almost all the time in a simple sling made from a sarong length and very few have a cot (known as a 'baby box'!) to sleep in. Babies wear snow suits and fleece hats, in 90deg temps.

People are very welcoming to children but actual facilities for them are few and far between. Most public loos down't even supply loo paper for adults, let alone a changing room!!