5.5 yr old, awful behaviour, responds to NO punishment. (Kohn) !!HELP

[Oblomov]

So, I Have been a MN'er for a few years. And I have read 'how to talk so kids'. I think my son would get on with Alfie Kohn. Becasue nothing I do seems to make his beahaviour improve. Rewards and punishments don't work.
Ds1(5.5) his behaviour is attrocious. Has been for months. Not too bad when he started school. But ds2 born oct. maybe a jealousy thing, then ?
Nothing works- NOTHING. Smacked him once in desperation, shouted. Not shouting. Praising good, ignoring bad. Pasta jar. naughty step. counting to 3. Star chart. Spending time with him, playing. Affirmation and praise. Explaining. Not explaining and just doing/ignoring. Taking away the things he loves. I've tried everything. and nothing works. He said " you can't make me, because I don't want to ".
Stubborn. I am so very very tired. TIRED of this. Dh is too. All his friends at school are the same, but in different ways. So I know its not just him. But I just can't bear it anymore.
Hv and GP says I am doing fine, not to worry. Great. Thanks for that then !
School says he is a 'pleasure'. Considered OCD or AHDH , but he is not THAT bad. He is just rude, cheeky, answering back. Repeatedly asking him to do the same thing. Like sit at the table properly to eat. It just becomes so VERY VERY WEARING
Promise of Indiana Jones lego, which he DESPERATLY wants. Explained one in for good day, one out for bad behaviour. Then yesterday he was bad. Went to collect him from friends house and he didn't want to leave. Now I know he was excited... but. Then he hit me . twice. this is a new thing. so shocked. walked him home and put him straight to bed. cried. said to him, 'well, this kind of behaviour won't help towards getting him Indiana'. he says "oh well, I don't care if I don't get it".
Like nothing matters to him. He is obviously were savvy as to what pushes our buttons. I really don't know what to do.
Please advise. Because we are clearly doing it all wrong. and all the old classics of parenting techniques, naughty step etc, just are not working for us.
What do we do ?

No idea. But I have one of those children too. Not bothered by sanctions, and have tried every parenting technique going (and for a reasonable period of time btw).
He can be a delight - very fun to be around kind, gentle, active. But he can be a complete nightmare, with no control and no interest in doing anything other than what he wants.
I feel your stress, and I will wait with you for some advice .
He is not a pfb or even an only child, so I do have confidence in my parenting - it just doesn't work for him.

it is hard, not sure what to advise. i do try and remember to talk to dd before situations like picking her up from friends houses. telling her to remember to be good and get her coat on etc. etc. i stop her watching dvds for a day or a couple of days which seems to work. trick is be consistent and follow through.

good luck!

also if dd is cheeky or upleasant i explain i am not going to speak to her until she is more civilised. she hates that.

So he goes to a catholic school. their ethos is so incredibly loving. all the children are. my dh's family are catholic, we are not really. we go to church occassionally. ds LOVES it. and chose to go to church, over swimming, a few months ago !!!!!
3 school mums , over coffee, when I explained it to them, this morning, said, oh but he is so very sweet. and all the boys are the same, don't worry.
and he is very sweet natured. and very loving towards his brother. jumps in his cot every morning and they play. and sometimes when I ask him to watch ds2, he says I don't want to. i want to do my own thing. which seems fair. balanced. he is ONLY 5.
But maybe he is just like me. black and white. sweet, but a nightmare ?

But what do you actually DO Do Do ?
He is good at maths. his reading deteriorated, when I didn't do so much practice, because of birth of ds2, but has got better. he shares and plays beautifully. he likes playing football with the older boys outside. he likes indiana dvd's. he likes tv. but when I take away those things for a few days, it makes no difference.
Thus, DeepGoat, I am consistent and I do follow through. But it is just not effective.
Crouching, this problem is surely not unique. What do others do. Please God, where are the experienced MN'ers. Please come and help me out here.

i don't have alot of time jsut now- but if you are doing the rewards thing, i'd suggest taking a whole day as too long.
I bet there were some lovely positive things that day thatcould have been rewarded.
And jsut obne fall out negated them all.

I do understand- ds1 is eaxactly like this.

i try the how to talk thing most as it appeals to me most- bbut it is bloody hard to work with.
And voilence towards his brother is jsut not tolerated- so then the how to listen/talk/whatever book isn't alot of help to me there.

He's sneaky and sly at times and ack chatty.

And i find it helps to be upbeat about it - today we had a choise getting ready for school
We could inhabit crazy messed up world in which kids moaned and cried and said they hated me instead of gettitng dresses.
or we could have the happy clapy world where everyone got dressed etc and had time to play.

WE opted for running around like nutters world, but we laughed and got dressed and left the house.

The world is alot better when i am on top of it and have humour and can foresee problems... but it is bloody back breaking and friggin' boring to have to be the adult everytime!!

ANwya, sympathy to you, big style.
and i hope there are other suggestions- i'll be watching

i think he knows how much you want him to behave ~ could be a protest vote against the new baby as in if they don't care,I don't care[and I don't want to listen to the explanations]

For which the cure would be kind calm affectionate parenting with no discussions about his behaviour.
Also beware of endless chats and explanations about behaviour ,they switch off at this age as they hate to be in the wrong and get bored with it all.
Maybe lay off him for a while,with just moderate treats for eating at the table etc,or star chart towards stickers etc[but not with a lot of discussion],keeping it light and not despairing.

That is totally off the top of my head btw but just trying to give a different perspective

yes, I have tried attention withdrawl. and he doesn't like it at all. but it doesn't make his whingy, whiney, answering back, not sitting at the table, all those not serious, but continually done = very wearing things, it doesn't make those any better.

oops, I try that. when I really want to shout at him and say 'just get your bloody coat, NOW', I grab him and tickle him and laugh and get it on. and that works. but as a one off. and then the whingey whiney starts again. and it is just so very tyring and draining isn't it.
you can't do 'how to talk type scenarios all the time can you.
is there are root problem that I need to get to the bottom of here ?

i think that they don't always know what they need to do to behave.
my ds1 is really clever and booky- but some of the obsvervatoins he makes re other kids' behavour show me that he doesn't always understand.

I asked the other day what "going to bed nicely" meant and he came out with something like not making a noise when i go to the toilet.
He really wasn't 100% sure of the thing he needed to do.
So i try to tell both of them what is expected, or make it inot a game- how do smart kids go to bed. We discuss it and then make a plan about how it will work... and then when they deviate they are told that this isn't how we were expecting it to go.
Just saying "don't do that, stop it or you lose something" doesn'y cut it with my ds1.

i hate to sound like i am telling you what to do- and i'm sure we've talked beofre on here about ds1's behaviour/
But sometimes when you are desperate you can't remember what helped

I feel sorry for you too!!

I didn't mean attention withdrawal,i meant enjoying what you can of each day in a relaxed and positive way and not alluding to his behaviour more often than say once a week.

It may not be an instant change in behaviour,but might get better over a couple of months.

agree with morning. I do think he knows what good behaviour is, what I want.
My mum said a couple of months ago, to let it go, stop talking about it. so i did that. weeks later, things hadn't got any better. and it felt like along time, when i was actually doing it.
should I try that AGAIN ?

OMG - this is so like DS1 it is scary.

He doesnt respond at all to anyform of disapline or praising or even ignoring.

It is so hard. He is far too clever and at the moment is driving me to the brink of despair.

He knows he is being naughty, but just doesnt care about the consequences at all, even if they are dangerous.

The issue I have is he has a younger brother (15 months) nad they feed off each other, sometimes it is all I can do to get through the day.

People do not believe how bad it can be as they are very well behaved in front of people, apart from leaving if they dont want to.

I am at breaking point, infact DH walked in last night and I walked out

It is not helped by the fact that I am so tired after a major operation.

I do not know ehere he gets some of the things he says from. He called me his servent (not something he would here from us) and I was very angry and expalined that wasnt the case, as did DH. He then said it again this morning nad I countered again "I am your mummy, not a servent" to which he replied, "but its as good as isnt it" Now this child is only just 4 yeards old.

I know part of the issue is that he gets bored and I can not always stimulate him. He can count in the 1000's add and subtract to 100 and also knows his letters etc - I dont think this is exceptional, but it is hard, when the younger one it not at the same stage.

He can do over 100 peice jigsaws much faster than I can adn tends to do his brothers easier ones for him.

I am so sorry this has turned into a rant from me.

I will watch this with interest in the hope that someone suggests something that is practical for us both

I like Alfie Kohn, and it's similar to the approach we've used with my (challenging) ds2 with autism. My other two are pretty/very easy btw.
The thing is, it's about prioritising the relationship with them, not controlling their behaviour, so there are no guarantees. In practice, I think it is the way that for us, with our family and personalities, does lead to the best behaviour too.

I'm prob not making much sense, but I think what I'm trying to say is that the most important thing for me is a loving, trusting respectful relationship, in the long term as well as right now.
it works for us, it might be worth a try, but ime it's not just another set of 'tricks' to make them do what you want, it's a really different way of being and should be approached as such.

I think it is boys of this age TBH, I know that doesn't help though. DS1 went through it at 5/6 and now DS2 (6.5) is going through the same, it is hard work. Yesterday he told me he was going to 'wreck' his newly repaired school shoes again so he could wear his trainers to school. He will spend 20 minutes refusing to read one word on a page but then read the next 4 or 5 pages beautifully. He is just trying to push the boundaries and control situations. Having learned the hard way with DS1 that trying to talk it through, reward charts etc don't work particularly well, I am just trying to ignore the bad behaviour and not let him take control of the situation. It makes me sad that I am finding my lovely, effectionate, funny little boy such a struggle but when I look at DS1 now (almost 9) I know he'll come through it.

I am contradicting myself , aren't I
Oops, I am sure we have talked before. and no, I certainly didn't feel like you were telling me what to do. or if you were, please TELL ME !!!!

I just said that he knows what good behaviour is. But then I read what you said about bedtime and other childrens behaviour and yes, he says things that don't make sense.

But I did sit him down and talk about sitting at the table properly. and I showed him. said , this is how mummy sits. and this is what I do. and I want you to do, this and that, but not this. do you understand. yes he said.

saintmaybe, please eloborate. I am all ears.

TheMadHouse, my DS2 comes out with the servant thing too - where do they get it from??? Also does not help when they are so well behaved around others and you just think "you should see them at home!". DS1 in particular is a model student and his teachers all praise his sensible grown up behaviour at school, DS2 has a tendency to mess around with his friends a bit but again, mostly good reports there too.

Would love to see some of that behaviour at home !

Oblomov, I'm sure they tell you they understand because it stops you talking! I often ask if they understand what I am asking of them and ask them to repeat back what I have said and 9 times out of 10 they can't remember (even though it was only said seconds before).

Will watch this thread with interest for tips...

speckle, at least you have made me laugh out loud ! so true. just to shut me up, maybe !

madhouse, are you sure that your problems are not related to your son being G&T ? my son is bright, but not that bright, so this doesn't apply to him. But come along for the ride with me and hopefully some of the others posters posts will help you too.

Yes I think try that again in terms of not talking about his general behaviour in any way,although you can still say day to day things like "Please sit at the table" or "It is wrong to hit because it hurts people"which are less personal to him and are more simple requests.

Put him back in your good books[in your mind and in your comments to him]and be less worried by his behaviour,just think of it as a phase /part of growing up/adjustment which you can help him with by setting a good example,being positive with him and taking no notice of the smaller negative behaviour.By which I mean continuing happily as normal rather than withdrawing attention or looking displeased.
I think its well worth you trying really hard with this so he doesn't feel excluded etc and in the long term he'll be fine.

My guess is you are maybe a bit worried about him and sensitive because of the baby and also you could be missing each other a bit too, so try and get time with him alone at the weekends when you could take him out on your own on a sat morning or something.

Try not to worry he will be fine

just wanted to add ,he doesn't really care about toys,sanctions etc because all he really wants is to be in your good books and have consistency while he adjusts and gets through this stage.

Apologies, have only skimmed the thread.

Time for one-on-one sounds good. Picking your battles, really reducing the amount of things you clash on.

Have you asked him what's going on? Not in a confrontation time, but at a quiet time?

Some stuff I've found useful to read - Playful Parenting, reminds you to keep it fun as much as possible. Raising your Spirited Child - helps for non-laid-back children.

My dd1 is sort of similar - great at preschool, a real handful for me. Maybe he's storing up all his energy / negative feelings and taking them out on you because he knows it's safe?

It sounds like it's been a lot of changes for him - starting school and a new sib.... not that that makes it any easier to deal with , I know!

He sounds exactly like my DS who is just 5. I'm at the end of my tether with him too and most days dread picking him up from school as thats when it starts . Really hoping it is a phase that will pass soon.

Oblomov My ds2 aged 6 has a dx of ADHD and I've never sounded as desperate as you Haven't read whole thread ... how is he at school?

Sorry to hear you are having a hard time. I too am with saintmaybe on the Alfie Kohn approach.

Hope I don't come across as a "besserwisser", but here are my thoughts any way . Ans apologies in advance for my rusty English.

It seems to me that you want your ds to treat you with more respect - not in that he should fear you or anything - but normal behaviour with no hitting, answering back etc.

I think the best approach towards such a family life is for you to always treat your ds with respect, i.e. no shouting, withdrawal, slapping, naughty step etc.

So always expect the best from him. When he does something that's not good, always think before you say no - do you have a good reason for saying no? If so, go ahead and always explain why you say no, and then don't be "scared" of his reactions.

It seems to me that he may be a bit confused about the different approaches you have tried out. I would try for as much of the time as possible to communicate with him like you would if you were talking to a grown up relative IYKWIM.

And like saintmaybe said - always trusting and loving, try to nake that the foremost feelings on a day-to-day-basis.

Also agree with the ones who wrote about explaining more in the situation than you think should be necessary, i.e. when you do this to your brother he gets upset; when you talk to me like that you make me sad etc. You could do like this / say like this instead and that would make your brother / me happy.

Hope it gets better for you soon!