5.5 yr old, awful behaviour, responds to NO punishment. (Kohn) !!HELP

[Oblomov]

So, I Have been a MN'er for a few years. And I have read 'how to talk so kids'. I think my son would get on with Alfie Kohn. Becasue nothing I do seems to make his beahaviour improve. Rewards and punishments don't work.
Ds1(5.5) his behaviour is attrocious. Has been for months. Not too bad when he started school. But ds2 born oct. maybe a jealousy thing, then ?
Nothing works- NOTHING. Smacked him once in desperation, shouted. Not shouting. Praising good, ignoring bad. Pasta jar. naughty step. counting to 3. Star chart. Spending time with him, playing. Affirmation and praise. Explaining. Not explaining and just doing/ignoring. Taking away the things he loves. I've tried everything. and nothing works. He said " you can't make me, because I don't want to ".
Stubborn. I am so very very tired. TIRED of this. Dh is too. All his friends at school are the same, but in different ways. So I know its not just him. But I just can't bear it anymore.
Hv and GP says I am doing fine, not to worry. Great. Thanks for that then !
School says he is a 'pleasure'. Considered OCD or AHDH , but he is not THAT bad. He is just rude, cheeky, answering back. Repeatedly asking him to do the same thing. Like sit at the table properly to eat. It just becomes so VERY VERY WEARING
Promise of Indiana Jones lego, which he DESPERATLY wants. Explained one in for good day, one out for bad behaviour. Then yesterday he was bad. Went to collect him from friends house and he didn't want to leave. Now I know he was excited... but. Then he hit me . twice. this is a new thing. so shocked. walked him home and put him straight to bed. cried. said to him, 'well, this kind of behaviour won't help towards getting him Indiana'. he says "oh well, I don't care if I don't get it".
Like nothing matters to him. He is obviously were savvy as to what pushes our buttons. I really don't know what to do.
Please advise. Because we are clearly doing it all wrong. and all the old classics of parenting techniques, naughty step etc, just are not working for us.
What do we do ?

actually that was a really good post capricasix
lots of good advice here

I read on another thread something like 'you can't control your childs behaviour, only your own behaviour' which I think sums up a bit what CapriciaSix is saying.

Other people have reassured you that he is sweet etc when he's not at home.

Seems to me you need to work out how to change how you feel or react about what is happening at home.

Like when he says he doesn't care about the Indiana Jones Lego. Does it really matter that he says that? OK it's a bit cheeky, but you and he know deep down he does care.

Actually I stopped using rewards and punishments when DS was 4. I read Kohn and am convinced that they don't "work" in changing my children's behaviour but that when I used them they did spoil our relationship.

i am also worried re school
They are starting to work on a very reward based type of behaviour

eg you get a raffle ticket for eating all your lunch- to go intot a draw att he end of theweek,
there are merit points to be gained every daay/week-you get a stcicker for each 10 merits and then when you get 50 it'sa prize. ds1 seemed to think it was chocolate- but i don't know.

It just doesn't sit well with me.
Even though i do reward going to bed nicly with the abiltiy to play Wii the next day...

OSOTC - that phrase kind of sums up what really upsets me about all of this - I am the grown up and he makes me act like a child.

I am going to pip that up somewhere, as it rings so true.

Thank you very much

Am mid cooking spag boland getting ready for school run. so excuse brief posts.
lots of good advice. thank you. will re read later and read through it with dh.
But ICANDOTHAT are you suggesting that I do need to consider ocd/adhd with ds ?
other side channel, he is/can be very sweet at home. but the irritating things are really irritating.
caprica "want your DS to behave exactly as you want him to behave". yes that is true. not on every issue. I appreciate he is not me, has a personality etc etc. but asking a child to sit at the table, properly is not unreasonable. he does it at school. he does it at other peoples houses. I wouldn't pick him up on it, but it is something that actually is really important to me and dh. and we have asked him nicely. explained what we want. prompt him every night. then I started saying, why do I need to prompt you every night.
it is not an unreasonable thing to ask. i suppose that the table thing is not the real issue here. but it is the repeatedly asking that gets so wearing.

and are you all saying that you think that answering back, being cheeky, going on at same things time and time again, or at the other extreme, the hitting of me twice, is o.k. behaviour, in your book. because its not for me. sorry. i don't think i can change my view on the one.

must go, back later.

my ds1 is also going thru a funny phase of just repeating the same word again and again and then ds2 starts.
he also just pushes teddies inot other people's faces and says their names repeatedly.

I know he is a bit odd, and he's been assessed for asperger's .
he's just very immature but very clever.
and it is very very tiresome to deal with

Oblomov No, I don't think you should be considering OCD (I think you would def know if he was suffering from that) or ADHD as you would be experiencing problems at home, school and other social situations. If this is purely at home, then it's down to you. I practice '1-2-3 Magic' (by a guy called Phelan, I think) with my ds aged 6 and it works great. It's basically counting down poor behaviour. I bought the book at Amazon and I never get passed 2 these days. It took a while, but it really works.

Oopsagain what was the outcome of your ds's assessment?

I was just about to post about my DS - 4 in Sept - who is behaving in a similar way, and wondering if some of the behaviour was related to a rise in testosterone.

But this thread is really helpful for reminding me to respect him for who he is. When I find myself really wanting to control his behaviour, I find it helpful to ask myself why I'm getting into that controlling frame of mind (DD is still a baby, so doesn't come in for that kind of attention). Along the lines of other posters' "does it really matter?", I used to ask myself whether what DS wanted to was illegal, unsafe or anti-social. And if not, he should be able to do it, even if I found it annoying (antisocial comes in as a handy catchall that includes pissing mummy off ).

commander, I suspect if we refered to the steve biddulph book, raising book, raising boys, we would prob find that there is a testosterone jump, right now.
don't get me wrong. I am not a control freak. ds has loads of annoying habits, that I let go. and i often let things go, when I ask him to put on something, and he says, i want those shoes, that fleece, whatever whatever, and I think, well in the grand scheme of things, it just doesn't matter,
but other things do matter to me. seems normal. it might not be the same thing that is important to you. but thats what they mean by 'choose your battles', isn't it.

Yes according to raising boys there is a testosterone jump, but that doesnt make hitting OK.

I think there is a need for solutions or at least I need to be doing something to try to prevent the unacceptable behaviour from occuring again and again

and no matter what his personality, there are certain behaviour that society deems unacceptable.
and certain things he has to do that he doesn't want to. thats life i am afraid.
othersidechannel, when you say can't control their behaviour, what do you mean. i mean we have to control their behaviour surely,. we have to teach them what society sees as acceptable,non ?
i don't want people thinking my son is rude, cheeky, can't behave properly in a certain situation. Surely none of us want that. universal want. and yes he is only 5, but he has to learn/be taught that he can do do what he wants.
I let so much go. Butt he other day, for the first time ever, my dh said " it doesn't matter that you don't want to. you have to. i don't want to go to work every day, but I have to".
which is a valid point that we have never utilised before.
you may not want to do PE or sit your exams, but you have to . get used to it !

is he tired or hungry

do you stick to what you say
are oyu plausible
do you over explain

do you give him control over some things? does he feel a valid part of the family? does he feel his opinion is heard and considered?

a big part of that is picking your battles. if he sits nicely at the table at school and at other people's houses then i atually wouldn't make a fuss if he doesn't do it at home. try not to comment on such things. ok it annoys you, but you do things that annoy him too, and you maybe don't change those behaviours to suit him.

macaroon said about being plausible. this is another big thing for me. dd knows i only says no to things with good reason because she's used to being listened to and us discussing and compromising and trying to understand each other.

as much as you find him infuriating, he probably feels the same about you.

say it once
repeat it
then act on it
i think oyu may need to bin Kohn tbh

i don't think the OP has tried kohn yet.

i BET htis is how it is

mum " alfie, please put your bag away"
kid ignores
Mum " alfie woudl oyu liek to put your bag away"
kid ignores
mum "please put it away alfie or i will trip over it"

kid ignores etc

you need ot haev a set of expectations that are reasonable
" after school we put bags away"
adn STOP him with what he is doing while you are speaking to him
MAKE him look at you and show he is listening

also i think a lot of mums dont LISTEN to themslves goign ON AND ON at their kids
keep it short snappy and objective

NOT " oh dont forget to do your bad alfie rememebr you said oyu woudl and it makes me sad when you dont adn you are always a good boy and poutting your bag away will help me"

YAWN

" alfie bag"

the hitting and shouting sounds tired to me.
also dont promise him lego for behavign like a human being.
wtf will you give him at 10?! a car?
just that is HOW WE DO IT>
i think you need to be firm and calm.

ask your mates" am i firm with him"

bet they say no

(sory keep rereadign OP)
and DO NOT tolerate asnwering back

punish him for being rude. its NOT ON and will piss people off at school. there is NO WAY i woudl tolerate " i dotn care" abotu the lego

MI - those are wise words. I will try and follow. I am going to ask a friend tomorrow if I am firm enough and consice, although I doubt I am ever plausable.

The issue I suspect is consistancy for me too. It is hard when it is constant from him and it is such a dramatic change for the boy he used to be.

I find DS challenging and also struggle to keep him occupied, but I also feel that he should be able to find things to occupy himself.

He knows he is doi9ng wrong, but still does them.

what time does he go to bed?
talk at the end of the day abotu nice things he did.
ds3 was a bti wilder than his brothers ( oddly till he got his hair cut) and I used to talk about how he could have been morepolite to Granny or whatever when we were in bed.

PRAISE madly - even make up phone covos to Auntie whoever to say" did oyu hear alfie was SUCH a good boy i was so proud of him"

they fall for that every time suckers

Mine goes to bed at 7pm, as he is on the go all the time, never stops. He is up 6ish in the morning.

I do the phone thing all the time

I guess my report would be "needs to try harder"