5.5 yr old, awful behaviour, responds to NO punishment. (Kohn) !!HELP

[Oblomov]

So, I Have been a MN'er for a few years. And I have read 'how to talk so kids'. I think my son would get on with Alfie Kohn. Becasue nothing I do seems to make his beahaviour improve. Rewards and punishments don't work.
Ds1(5.5) his behaviour is attrocious. Has been for months. Not too bad when he started school. But ds2 born oct. maybe a jealousy thing, then ?
Nothing works- NOTHING. Smacked him once in desperation, shouted. Not shouting. Praising good, ignoring bad. Pasta jar. naughty step. counting to 3. Star chart. Spending time with him, playing. Affirmation and praise. Explaining. Not explaining and just doing/ignoring. Taking away the things he loves. I've tried everything. and nothing works. He said " you can't make me, because I don't want to ".
Stubborn. I am so very very tired. TIRED of this. Dh is too. All his friends at school are the same, but in different ways. So I know its not just him. But I just can't bear it anymore.
Hv and GP says I am doing fine, not to worry. Great. Thanks for that then !
School says he is a 'pleasure'. Considered OCD or AHDH , but he is not THAT bad. He is just rude, cheeky, answering back. Repeatedly asking him to do the same thing. Like sit at the table properly to eat. It just becomes so VERY VERY WEARING
Promise of Indiana Jones lego, which he DESPERATLY wants. Explained one in for good day, one out for bad behaviour. Then yesterday he was bad. Went to collect him from friends house and he didn't want to leave. Now I know he was excited... but. Then he hit me . twice. this is a new thing. so shocked. walked him home and put him straight to bed. cried. said to him, 'well, this kind of behaviour won't help towards getting him Indiana'. he says "oh well, I don't care if I don't get it".
Like nothing matters to him. He is obviously were savvy as to what pushes our buttons. I really don't know what to do.
Please advise. Because we are clearly doing it all wrong. and all the old classics of parenting techniques, naughty step etc, just are not working for us.
What do we do ?

sorry oblomov, posted and ran. I think capricasix was saying something similar to me and putting it better!

If all you're trying to do is control behaviour, by means of threats and bribes, at some point you're going to run out of things that are tempting or scary enough. So it's better that you have a relationship based on mutual trust and respect and kindness, which does mean not being on their case and sweating the small stuff. Because if you do make it clear when something is a big deal, as when it's unsafe etc, you've got 'money in the bank' from all the times that you've listened to them. They know you're not completely unreasonable and obsessed with enforcing things that they don't think are important.

And in the longer run you want them to be the kind of people who do kind things because they're kind, and that's how we treat people, not because someone more powerful will punish/ reward them.
And it helps you get out of that horrible pattern where you're always moaning and they're ignoring you.

God this parking lark its fucking hard work

Macaroon Incident your posting name sounds like it has a funny story behind it.

Oblomov, not controlling is not the same as not teaching. And of course there are some behaviours you have to control. Like if one child is hitting another you can and should restrain them.

But how can you actually make your child stop fidgeting at meal times?

A lot of the time you can teach more by showing how things should be done and letting them achieve it in their own time. And you can learn from them too, from their ideas about how things should be done.

Agree a LOT with keeping it simple though. You don't want to get into big drawn out constant arguments about things. if you're not in that weird power-struggle world they don't seem to rise to the challenge about every little thing you ask them to do. And they know you're not a loon.

i have a nicer time with mine now, and they're much nicer, calmer, more helpful kids.

when they bore me i say "i am not talking about this any more"

a good simple trick.

aslo the old HTT " i can hear you are cross"
" its tough when you dont get what you want"

but i think they talk as they are spoken to. My kids (atm) are never rude, never answer back, never say they hate me never sat shut up.

they are utter freaks i knwo and I am sure it will end but i do think modelling normal rrepsonses is the way to go.
At work some kids are SO overly confrontational and aggressive when they talk to me, and I normally defuse this by humour doind a smiling face, or by giving a simple instruction " that si not the way we talk to each other " then changing the subject.

DO listen to WHAT you say and HOW you say it.

it WILL GET BETTER! its really good that you are thinking about it NOW rather than later.

..another teahcery trick is the power of standing near them when they are at a mates house and perhaps lookign wilful.

ANd the old fave whispering an instruction in their ear. ffreaks them OUT majorly.

( regardign playdates I find ds3 horrendous at them atm and havesuspended playing priveleges till he is older }

same as mad house. bed at 7. up at 6.
I am firm and consistent. Maroon, Most people think I am too firm. with too high expectations.

I am firm. i am consistent. do I labour the point - yes, unfortuntaley I think I am really bad at this - will give this some thought.
back later. please carry on

A lot of great tips on this thread I think! Another thought: On the things you will not accept, give him ways out / tell him how he could have behaved in a better way.

E.g. with the hitting - tell him clearly that this is unacceptable and explain that it would have been OK for him to tell you that he was upset about having to go home because he was having a great time at his friend's house.

Regarding the table manners, I agree with others that the only thing to do is to set a good example and keep reminding him, but you can't physically make him eat nicely and I think it would be detrimental to your relationship nd maybe also his enjoyment of food if you push this issue by various rewards and punishments etc. Agree that it's important they learn and drives you up the wall though! But all in their own time, I think.

i think also
decide priorities
for me table manners is WAY down there.
i like tidiness and politeness

you may want to try epsom salt baths or epsom cream [kirkmans] to cool down behaviours i also found hyos a homeopathic remedy good for shouting lying on floors being diffident irritable screaming..... etc.,

So I have just read your posts Oblomov and I can identify. I have a DS the same age and he is a sweet boy - clever but not too clever and I too have high expectations. He is just coming out of the phase that you describe - he has developed the ability to empathise (he is 5 years and 9 months old). Just hold on for another few months and all will be fine - good luck .

You seem to have some very good advice. I don't think it matters too much which you take, as long as you are consistent. Be patient and give it time-sometimes it takes a while before you see the effects.

He sounds a fairly normal 5 year old. Do reward thing in small stpes not a whole day as that can be very hard for a 5 year old. For example give him a star every time he sits nicely at the table. Also don't take the star away if he misbehaves later.

Am re-reading my old thread. This is becasue my ds is now 6.5, so almost a year since i wrote this thread. and his behaviour has continued the same. and i keep trying to adjust my parenting, but i am obviously failing. becasue he has worn me down, so much that i just don't love him anymore. really i don't. i can't stand him. it took me a while to admit that. and it saddens me to write it, but its true.
i told the headmistress some of the things he has done. she was so shocked. she said he was one of her best boys. she got the senco lady to ring me. not becasue they have any concerns, but that she thought that she may be able to help me. lovely senco lady told me i was doing all the right things. she told me to stop the parenting course, becasue it was too basic. she said i needed a referal to a child pyschologist because that was the only person who could help me. she said his behaviour was deep and intriguing. i told her that my mum still maintains it is sibling rivalry induced, got worse when he started school and ds2 was born. i told her we occassionally put ds2 in nursery and do something nice for ds1. but that ds1 doesn't want this. i offered him to put ds2 in nursery next week, as usual, for his sports day, so that we could concentrate on him. but he said no, he wanted ds2 there.
dh said he would take ds1 to the cinema to see toy story 3 when it comes out. he said he wanted ds2 to go.

i am not sure that i can sink any lower.
have re-read my point on my too high expectations. but was on a thread about discipline yesterday and others said they wouldn't tolerate answering back. i said this to my mum. 'i never spoke to you that way and i just don't want my son to either.
people say i have too high expectations. but i simply can not accept that my son asnwering me back and being rude to me is o.k.' my mum said that was fine.
I told my mum that i think all ds1's fellows (6) are rude and badly behaved. his cousin has tantrums and answers my sil back. i have 2 friends with children exactly the same age as me. we all agree that we are not happy with our childrens behaviour.
but what is interesting is thta it doesn't grind them down as much as it does me and dh. but why is that ?
i know it gets on my friends nerves. but she says that the difference is that her ds responds to threats/ can talk about it and does change. then occassioanlly it crops up again, but he responds. she says that this this is bearable for her. but with my son his minor irritants, sometimes very rude and awful beahviour is so regular, and so draining that she is not surprisede that i am at the end of my tether. she says that my son is so defiant and that he does not respond to any technique. and that she does not know how i cope.

i can't wait to see what advice the child pyschologist will give us. but realistically what advice could they offer me that i haven't already tried. and then i keep thinking that i must not have implemented it properly. but the leaders of the parenting course and the senco lady said i have. and they had no advice for me. where does that leave me ?

sorry. am at work.

Hi Oblomov ... I came on here to post a 'help' note about my 6 yr old DS and have read your thread with interest. I'm so sorry you're going through this - I don't have advice to offer as it's advice I need - but please don't beat yourself up. You sound like a fabulous Mum who is doing her very best for her son.

Please let us know how you go with the child psychologist and keep your chin up.

thank you millie.
i hope you too get the help you need.
I want him to be taken away. If I could get social services to take him away for 3 mths or 6 mths and frighten him into appreciating us. But i can't make that happen. shame because i wish i could.

Sorry to hear things are still rough.