BF's DD is a pain in the a**e. Really need some advice on how to deal with it

[ataloss]

changed name for this in the (unlikely) event that friend might stumble across it. Sorry for length but I really am at a loss as to how to deal with this situation.

Have a very good friend with a DD same age as my DS (3.5). Sometimes they play together really well but her DD is a really drama queen and throws hideous tantrums if she doesn't get exactly her own way. This would be OK if BF didn't pander to her every wish but now it's starting to affect my DS. Example was yesterday they had tea together; they each had some vegetables; one in a green bowl and one in an orange bowl. My DS has the green bowl, cue much drama, flicking of hair and tears "but mummy I want the green bowl", "But darling you always want the orange bowl" etc. My DS is pretty easy going and normally in this situation he just gives her whatever she wants so he passes over the green bowl. 5 mins later "but I want the ORANGE bowl". Now at this point I would just say "tough, eat your tea and stop moaning" but no we have 5 more minutes of tears and bargaining from her mum and then the mum takes both bowls (including the one DS is eating from!) and says "right well neither of you can have the bowls then" and puts the food into two identical white bowls "OK, now you've got the same". BF's DD now takes it up a notch, wingeing, crying, etc etc. I was just standing there ignoring it and DS was sort of staring at her mystified (as he usually does when she behaves like this). Inside I was fuming thinking "why doesn't she just tell her to get on with it". Anyway, after a half hearted "you can't always have what you want" she takes both bowls back again and puts all the vegetables into the orange bowl, telling them to "share" the orange bowl. Poor DS hadn't even done anything FFS.

Silly example but this happens ALL the time. They just give into her and I feel it's starting to affect DS. In the car on the way home last night he said to me (where the DD is X):
?X gets cross doesn?t she? so I said ?well sometimes, but everyone gets cross sometimes? so he said ?mummy do I have to do what X wants?? so I said ?not all the time, no? so he said ?I do, because I just want to make X smile and that?s why I have to do what X wants?.
No I know it's not really a big deal but I thought how awful that he feels like that.

The big question is how do I deal with it when she starts acting up because fundementally the problem is always that she wants what DS has got and with teh mother not saying anything I'm left in the position of either saying "would you mind just giving it to X, sweetheart" just to keep the piece or not saying anything but then it's annoying when the mum takes things away from both of them just because her DD is playing up.

Sorry this is so long but I just don't know what to do. I get on really well with the mum but it's starting to do my head in.
BTW, not suggesting that my DS is an angel at all but 99.9%of the time, the tantrums arises because she wants whatever he's got (even if it's the same!)
I did tell her what he said to me in the car on the way home and she just said "ah well, she's a girl and he's a boy so he'd better get used to being told what to do!"

blimey- dragging ds1 in screaming from the street (every time we go out) I'd hardly describe him as perfect, and seeing him on a belt (because otherwise he's under a car) I hardly think anyone else would describe me as a perfect parent! However I don't ask other people's kids to change what they're doing to accomodate my beasts! I think that's the only thing the people on this thread are complaining about.

Agree Jimjams. It is one thing to indulge your own child for an easier time, but quite another to expect others to do the same. What if ataloss' ds had a different temperament and kicked off in return, either physically ot tantruming. imho 3 1/2 is certainly not too early to learn some social give and take.

dd is the same age and certainly no angel, but sharing is one of the things we have very little fuss over (the benefits of being a second child and attending playgroup) and I do insist that once a choice is made we stick to it - orange bowl or nothing !! It works most of the time lol.

nobody is pretending to be a perfect parent or have perfect children

I think if you spoil your child to the detriment of another child because they whinge or tantrum and it 'isn't worth the fight' you are simply exhibiting incredibly bad parenting skills

I have been on the other side of this as well (in fact for one minute I thought you might be my friend in disguise ataloss ) - dd is currently going through a stage of wanting only things that other people have - we had a very similar situation to the bowls - ours was the tellytubby or penguin cup.
TBH, sometimes I do give in - it is often just easier to allow dd to get her own way when she decides that she must have one thing and her friend S have the other - regardless of S's wishes. DD is also very bossy with ds (but that's another thread). S's mum is very understanding, infact sometimes overly so - she insists on her dd giving up things that my dd wants when I am trying to lay down the law. And S is very good as well, and we both make sure that if ss has given up something to my dd, it is S who gets attention and praise for being so nice to dd when she is being so silly. And if dd starts being really demanding (and I would put all 3 instances you quote into that category) she gets taken out of the room until she wants to come back and share properly

I think you are able to lay down your rules in your house ataloss, but try and appreciate that the parents might be dealing with her behaviour this way because they don't know any better ways to deal with it.

I think you really need to talk to your BF about this. If she is embarrassed by her DDs behaviour, she still shouldn't take it out on your DS, that's out of order tbh. If she wants to give in for a quiet life in her own time that's her right (more fool her though IMHO!) but you can't expect others to suffer for your parenting choices.

You definitely need to sort this out before the holiday, but feel free to come back afterwards and moan about it I thought that was what MN was for? I for one will be here with virtual tea and sympathy....

I haven't read all the thread, just the first few bits but I agree with frogs on the whole I think and I really, really wouldn't be going on holiday with them. I think it's unlikely the other parents are going to appreciate your advice and whilst you can control issues like bowls and plates at your house, on holiday the rules have to be some kind of middle ground between what different groups of parents think is acceptable. So I think such differing styles could be really awkward on holiday.

At our playgroup btw the deal was 'You Get What You're Given' so we carried that on at home too in terms of bowls etc and it worked but I appreciate that it was easy for me as I was just reinforcing someone else's rule.

So, it's a self catering holiday, is it?
Can you find out if the kitchen cooker has a timer with a nice loud ring? If not, bring one along - in fact, bring one along anyway as you will not be spending all your holiday within earshot of the cooker.

FWIW, here's a suggestion. Use the timer to set limits for sharing and turn taking between the two children. So if your ds has a toy the girl wants, set the timer. It remains your ds's for 5 minutes, no argument. When the timer ring goes, the girl can have her turn with it for 5 minutes then it's your son's turn again. etc etc. IME this helps take the aggrivation out of the situation. No use the girl tantrumming - the timer is in charge and is immune to all pleas . You and your friend will present a united front - as long as neither of you give in, of course. Of course the timer won't work for everything, but it might help set some boundaries.

This is assuming you can sell the timer idea to your friend. Suggesting bringing along a kitchen timer could be a good way of starting a conversation about sharing generally and laying down ground rules. You could also throw in, for good measure, that your ds has been telling you he is frightened/upset by her dd's shouting and raging, hence you suggesting new tactics to deal with them both. If your friend doesn't like the idea of introducing a neutral timer, then IMO you have problems!

Reading this thread, personally I don't find the boys banana or princess stuff objectionable. I think the odd bit of make believe, and giving in a little to a child's point of view, is a great way of diffusing a situation. Sometimes insisting on the truth, in every detail, can wind children up for no good reason. I don't think it's fair to accuse the mother of bad parenting for doing this.

But I agree with others that you must draw a line between what you call 'weedy parenting' and other parenting that has a bad impact on your own child, like the bowl swapping.

I also agree with Enid that this behaviour may be just a phase and it's not fair to assume the parents actions alone have created it or can puit an end to it (not that I think your views are as black and white as this). I know it's annoying for you, and probably, the parents aren't handling the tantrums as well as they could every time. But difficult toddlers do exist - I know, I had one, and for the most part, he grew out of it. Looking back, my major mistake was to not give him enough of the right attention. When he was a toddler, I used to meetup with good friends, get very involved in chatting to them, and fell into the trap of intervening mostly when my son was being naughty. Put that together with a naturally attention-demanding son who loved adult company and sensed when my attention was on someone else, and the result was trouble. My youngest son was a naturally more self contained toddler who didn't give too hoots, usually, if I was having a fascinating conversation for 20 minutes with one of my friends. Not good parenting, just luck and personality.

Are the parents warming her up to be the next Mariah Carey or J-Lo. What a little Diva. I can't stand the whole don't do that darling thing. Big shock coming at school. I'm surprised she hasn't had a run in with anyone at nursery.
Good luck if you still go on the holiday. The kitchen timer sounds like a great idea.

nice post tigermoth

some really good advice here thanks. LIke the timer idea and also agree that I need to differentiate between stuff that can be ignored and stuff that actually affects DS.

FWIW I really don't think they are 'bad' parents, honestly and I don't want it to come across like that, I just find it hard to understand why they give in to her all the time as I think they are actually making it harder for themselves in doing so. Certainly don't think my DS is perfect and don't think anyone else suggested that either bossykate.
Interesting my DS was a nightmare as a newborn, colic, wouldn't sleep, was generally awfully unsettled, didn't sleep through until he was about 1 yr so I just figure his laid back attitude is payback for that! The little girl in question was actually an angel baby -slept through from 12 weeks etc so maybe this is their payback now!

definitely ataloss! definitely works like that! Ds1 was a dream baby- everyone used to comment on how laid back he was, and how smily and happy. The GP's surgery used to say he was the smiliest happiest baby they had! Been a long time since anyone said that (and I have a feeling he's the hardest in his class of 7 children as whenever they go out on the bus he is partnered with the class teacher rather than an assistant and I think the teacher takes the stroppiest!) I was a smug mum- paybackbig time!

be careful you don't go through life comparing them though ataloss

LOL jimjams
it's a universal truth amongst everyone I know with kids.

Compare who enid?

Whatever happens, children can change so much at as they go for todder to school age. Hopefully this little girl won't still be asking the her friend's orange bowl when she's a sophistacated 5 year old!

Good luck with the holiday - I think you're brave to go, feeling as you do. I think you need to lay down some ground rules with the other mother before you go.

I still have awful memories of a holiday I went on when I was 17. I was with my boyfriend, his sister and his sister's boyfriend. Sister's boyfriend was much bigger and older than my boyfriend. He doted on the sister. She was very whimsical, very selfish and just told her boyfriend what she wanted to do and where she wanted to go. He was at her beck and call and expected us follow. My boyfriend was in awe of the this bug butch man and was happy to do so. Oh I hated it!! came back seething with resentment!!

Sorry, haven't read all the way through so sorry if I'm repeating. They will start school soon and both will find new friends. Also you can use the 'doesn't want to play with girls at the moment' excuse.

If she's your friend why not sit down and ask her why she lets her DD behave like that? She may need some advice. You could start by saying it's affecting your DS (not you).

Morning Tigermoth, I second the going on holiday with friends nightmare. We went some years ago and the dramas are still fresh. Do make sure they are going to put their DD to bed in the evening. Our friends kids were up all evening so my idea of sitting round having an adult drink etc were shattered.

I thought we could babysit for each other for a night each so we could go out just the two of us for an evening but they didn't want to go out!

Everywhere we went they asked the kids where to go rather than have an adult conversation about it beforehand so we found ourselves pandering to their kids constantly.

They were so slow getting ready to do anything that as well as getting myself and my kids ready to go out I was then starting on hers, brushing their hair, cereal, clothes Aargh!

I'd have a word with BF (esp. before holiday) and ask her if she minds if you take control of situations that will affect your ds. I know that I will prob be like your BF with my ds - and will wimp out on the 'not important' stuff. But if there were other parents around and one of them told him off or implied for me to get tough - I'd be grateful. I'm sure ds would pay more attention if told off by another parent iykwim. and I'd be glad someone else was helping.
Going on holiday is a perfect opportunity to sit down beforehand and establish ground rules. Timer sounds an excellent idea and is a good conversation opener with your friend.