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Behaviour/development

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Really want to know if this is something more...

54 replies

MrsMattie · 01/01/2009 20:37

...than 'normal' behaviour.

DS is 4 yrs old in Feb. In a nutshell, he is a pretty bright, articulate boy, has always been 'spirited', a major enthusiast / very over excitable. He struggled badly at his last nursery as he had a bad biting habit (this was between the ages of 3-3.5 yrs old) and simply wouldn't take instructions (wouldn't help tidy up, wouldn't join in some group activities etc). in the end we had to remove him from the nursery as he spent most of the time on the 'naughty corner' alone and it just seemed to defeat the whole purpose of going to nursery .

He started a new nursery in Sept and thankfully topped the biting, although he still has a tendency to be aggressive. He is extremely clumsy / rough / over enthsuiastic in his approach a lot of the time, which spills over into aggression if he is tired or having a bad day. His nursery teacher is very patient and kind, but describes him as a 'whirlwind' and 'extremely willful / not keen on authority' (tell us something we don't know).

I have always put DS's behaviour down to being a bright, boisterous, easily bored little boy and cracked jokes about needing to walk him daily like a little puppy to get all his energy out etc, but I am now starting to worry a bit about him. He seems absolutely incapable of walking through a room without knocking something over or knocking into someone. He cannot seem to play for a more than a few minutes with another child (or adult!) without somehow hurting them - usually accidentally, but sometimes on purpose. He also will not listen to a word that is said to any instruction/request unless you physically take hold of him, look him in the eye and talk to him very loudly . He is also extremely bossy / willful, which is very tiring for me being a SAHM and trying to keep my patience with him all day.

In fairness he is going through a bit of a bad patch lately, as he has a newborn sister whom he is extremely jealous of - but these traits of his have been fairly constant, really. The thing that worries me is watching him around almost all other children. He really stands out as this nutty little character, constantly falling over and clowning around and eventually causing some other kid to cry (and usually ending up in tears himself). We had several children / family friends over to visit over Xmas, and visited several others, and he was unable to contain his excitement in any way at all and each visit ended in some kind of bad behaviour or temper tantrum. He just seemed so terribly badly behaved compared to all the other children, and I came away feeling depressed.

I don't want to set my expectations too high for such a small boy, but I ams starting to see that he is a bit different to other children and I am unsure where to go from here. Terrified of lavelling him a 'problem child'

p.s. I've made it sound like he is awful. He isn't. The strange thing is, he is a real Jekyll & Hyde character. He can be such a wonderful, co-operative, sweet boy sometimes, but it tends to be only for very short periods and only when he is one-to-one with an adult.

OP posts:
CarGirl · 01/01/2009 20:52

what does his new nursery say, have you asked them outright if they think there may be something more to it?

Heated · 01/01/2009 20:52

Hi MrsMattie, just wanted to say I do recognise traits in your spirited ds that make him sound like my ds (aged 4) and other little boys I know whom I consider normal & somewhat rumbustious. Whether it's more than that I'm not qualified to say.

Jmo as he is bright and articulate he could do with challenge that also has routine to it too, like football, trampolining, tumbletots, messsyplay...that might stand him in good stead for starting school as well.

lingle · 01/01/2009 21:30

Sympathy re the fear of him being labelled. Good that he's overcome the biting .

If there was a way to help him develop his sense of personal space/other people's personal space and reduce his clumsiness would that radically improve things? A good health visitor or doctor should have some ideas about this. Other people on here will too.....I've seen a friend's son being taught to do "high fives" instead of bear hugs - but he's five already so you need something more age/stage appropriate.

Tumbletots is great for the motor skills but very wearing if your child is the "naughty" one. I found it very hard last year even though it improved DS2's balance to the extent that he walked along a wobbly plank over ice today without fear.....

MrsMattie · 01/01/2009 21:58

Thanks for your replies.

CarGirl - his old nursery were talking about calling out the SEN people when we took him out of the nursery. I had no objections to them doing so (although I worried about it) - that's not why we left the nursery. We left because their only way of dealing with his behaviour seemed to be to remove him from group activities, and it got to the point where it was just silly - he was going to nursery and sitting alone for most of the time. At that time, the head of the nursery was quite concerned about the biting and his 'inability to listen'.

His new nursery don't seem to think there's anything serious to worry about at this stage. His teacher thinks he is exceptionally bright, academically, but we 'need to work on his social skills'. Nothing has been mentioned re: special needs or behavioural problems or anything (so far). His teacher has also pointed out that his inability to concentrate is 'selective'. He is able to focus on some activities for a long period if he wants to. It;s when he is in a situation where he isn't allowed to do exactly what he wants to do that his behaviour becomes really erratic and difficult to manage.

Heated - He does do some structured activities - swimming (in a small group; he loves this and concentrates very well), and enjoy-a-ball (he loves this, too, but does struggle a lot to concentrate and can be disruptive, although is getting a bit better since he started in the summer).

lingle - I have steered clear of Gymboree and TumbleTots because at softplay centres he is a nightmare. He just gets totally over excited and inevitably ends up hurtig other children. i have left our local softplay centre in tears on several occasions because I just could not cope with him. Doesn't help that he is enormous for his age - lots of parents think he is an older child and I inevitably get tutting and eye rolling from other mums at this sort of place

OP posts:
CarGirl · 01/01/2009 22:03

I wonder if the reaction of the staff at his previous nursery as escalated his behaviour IYSWIM. He got lots of (negative) attention there so he did it more and more and more so he's had no incentive to change perhaps?

Ask his current nursery if they have any ideas/suggestions/approaches to encourage more acceptable social skills perhaps? Sounds like his is bright enough to work out how to get as much attention as possible

Try not to worry but do keep liaising with his current nursery?

I have no experience at all but I have a few friends with dss of challenging behaviour in a similar way and again their dc are very bright.

RaggedRobin · 01/01/2009 22:06

when you said that he is a jekyll and hyde character, i wondered if you think there might be anything in his diet that might exacerbate his 'whirlwind' tendencies?

i'm considering a gluten-free diet for ds (language delay/disorder/follows own agenda/has 'whirlwind' tendencies), so at the moment am beginning to take note of when his behaviour seems to be at its worst and what he has eaten. am also v worried about how he will settle in nursery, so want to minimise triggers.

how is your ds's receptive/ expressive language? i think a lot of my ds's bossiness is caused by his language difficulties. he wants to be in control of the conversation because he often doesn't understand how to respond when someone else is in control, iyswim.

this time of year is particularly difficult for children like ours, i think. there is so much going on and so many more opportunities for things to go wrong. for the first time, i'm quite looking forward to things returning to normal after the festive season!

MrsMattie · 01/01/2009 22:10

Thanks CarGirl. It helps just to get it out, iyswim. I spend so much time worrying about him, and then wondering if I should be worrying about him so much (?!). I could drive myself a bit mad!

I think there is an element of truth in the whole 'negative attention' thing. (He is going through a real stage of whacking his 6 wk old sister when he wants some attention at the moment )

Thing is, I don't know how he could get more positive attention. I'm a SAHM, DH is very hands on, plus my mum lives round the corner and is about most days and does loads of stuff with him. He is really overflowing with attention, love, praise etc.

OP posts:
CarGirl · 01/01/2009 22:13

Perhaps he has too much attention (not sure if that is possible) but I mean more that he doesn't know how to occupy himself so he constantly seeks attention?

Have you got a playpen? stick baby in playpen - give limited attention to both of them get on with housework/relaxing/Mning?

GivePeasAChance · 01/01/2009 22:14

My experience of having a 'spirited' 3-5 year old DS, and now a very calm 7 year old is that I really and truly was just not strict enough. I had all the excuses for him and constantly tried to understand or excuse his behaviour (e.g. new sibling jealousy etc etc - it was always 'something'.)

But clearer boundaries stopped it all in it's tracks. My experience only obviously - but sometimes you do lose patience ( I,like you, was always trying to be patient) and in fact showing then how serious a bite or hit really is may be more beneficial than always appearing calm and trying to understand their behaviour.

lingle · 01/01/2009 22:14

Mrs Mattie, I have concluded that only very pliant children in the 2-3 age range are suitable for tumble tots. The rules are very rigid (because the equipment is quite demanding - some of it is 6 ft off the ground).
Your nursery teacher sounds really nice. Good that she picks out all the positives not just the challenges.

MrsMattie · 01/01/2009 22:18

Oh, and his nursery are pretty good. They saw me and DH for a 'chat' last month and will see us again next month. The nursery have suggested setting very clear, simple rules and introducing them gradually so he isnt overwhelmed. We started off with 'No running indoors' - the nursery suggested just repeating it to him and reminding him of it often - but I feel like a broken record. He doesn't listen to me, either! very difficult to know how to discipline him, too. Not a lot seems to work

RaggedRobin - he definitely behaves worse if he is hungry or if he has eaten sugar / additives. He's eaten his own body weight in chocolate over Christmas , which can't have helped, but usually eats a very healthy diet. He does eat a lot of bread / pasta, though. Hadn't thought about gluten. is it linked to behaviour?

His language is excellent. To the point where I would say he is a complete pedant. he corrects me (I have a London accent and occasionally drop my t;s and h's - and the cheeky beggar reminds me how to speak properly!. Seriously!

Should also add, he has some real 'OCD' traits, too,although that might be a bit harsh...but what I mean is, he likes things to be in a certain order or a certain way and gets very upset if they aren't. I know this is quite normal in toddlers / young children, but I sometimes wonder if it slightly tips over into being a bit OTT with DS...

OP posts:
CarGirl · 01/01/2009 22:22

If he really likes one to one attention from you perhaps that could be his reward for "good behaviour" and withdrawn for deliberate unacceptable behaviour? Often the key is working out what really matters to them for it to be a carrott IYSWIM.

MrsMattie · 01/01/2009 22:22

GivePeasAChance - now, you see, this is what my DH thinks! He thinks we need to get tough with him, but I'm not sure how to? My version of tough is when I am at my wits end and turn into 'shouty mum'. DH does the whole 'time out' thing and can be quite cool, calm and strict, and I have been going along with that for the last few months, too, although it doesn't come naturally to me. It hasn't really made much of a difference, though . How did you 'get strict'? All tips gratefully received!

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CarGirl · 01/01/2009 22:23

Perhaps the 123 magic approach. No 2.5, 2.75, comply or suffer the consequences you stipulated?

MrsMattie · 01/01/2009 22:24

CarGirl - you are probably right. I think my attention is the thing he wants most in the world. Bit tricky at the moment, with a newborn! I am trying to have a bit of the day that I spend just with him, whether it's bedtime or story time or whatever, but it doesn't always work out like that...

OP posts:
MrsMattie · 01/01/2009 22:25

x posts. I am the world's worst for 'one more chance' ...about a dozen times! @CarGirl...God, it's funny how when you write it all down and get feedback from strangers, you realise some home truths

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CarGirl · 01/01/2009 22:27

Perhaps you need to link very specifically "ds when you have xyz, then we will read a story when I next have to feed/change baby" If possible stuff you can do there and then.

Hmmm it would be good if you could set a timer for 15 minute and at the end of 15 minutes you do something with him for 2 mins but he loses it if he is "naughty".

I don't know a few suggestions to think about?

GivePeasAChance · 01/01/2009 22:31

It was actually really difficult to get to the point where I truly was honest with myself about how I needed to be 'stricter' and not 'excuse' behaviour. My DH still thinks I am on the 'not strict' enough side, and I agree but am much better!

I think putting aside empathy to a certain degree helps ! SOunds strange I know. But I don't believe any children are bad, and therefore was empathising too much when he did bad things - "ooh it's because he is tired, it's because he is jealous of new baby" - basically he didn't mean it and is not bad etc etc. But instead now, I just try to focus on the here and now. "He hit someone. Doesn't matter the hell why.........it's wrong (note: he is not bad, just bad behaviour)........and just sort it out. Now ! "
Forget the whys and wheres is the only thing I try to do and deal with the behaviour for what it is.

foxinsocks · 01/01/2009 22:32

I think not running indoors is unrealistic.

We all run indoors.

I think you need to focus on what you really want him to do.

I mean very very specifically what he doesn't do at nursery that you need him to do.

foxinsocks · 01/01/2009 22:33

I mean you really need to pick your fights

(and would agree with GivePeas - how v sensible and truthful!)

CarGirl · 01/01/2009 22:38

Also try and give him positive things to aim for.

ie "walk to the kitchen" is positive

"do not run down the hallway" is negative

lingle · 01/01/2009 22:46

agree re running indoors maybe not being realistic.

foxinsocks · 01/01/2009 23:01

thing is, I sort of feel I want to tell you two things

that he is only four, and four yr old boys tend to be a bit err vivacious and you have a new baby etc. etc.

but also, I have a child who would quite happily take control of me if I let him - he twists words I say and I can tell he's a real control freak so I have to keep a really tight rein on him. Not in a nasty way but he is a child that NEEDS boundaries (iyswim) whereas my other one isn't like that at all and when we let those boundaries slip a bit, his behaviour deteriorates very quickly.

And it might be an idea to read that How to Talk to kids so they will listen book. I think it sounds like a good idea for him. I should say I haven't read it but realise it would have been a good thing with my ds (but he's far older now!).

BoffinMum · 01/01/2009 23:23

Educationalist here.

From what you say, I have a very sneaky suspicion this is a form of ADHD (there are several different kinds) and that it might be worth getting some professional help and advice before he starts school. To start the ball rolling, it might be worth seeing the GP and getting a referral to your local child psychology service for some sort of diagnosis, because they can give you and the nursery a lot of support and help get him back on track.

1-2-3 Magic is great for kids with ADHD, by the way, as is Triple P Parenting (I think this is an Australian programme with group sessions and an associated book). That's not to say there is anything actually wrong with your parenting as it stands, it is just a question of tweaking it so family life becomes more enjoyable.

Some families use Omega 3 fish oil to settle this type of behaviour as well - the jury is out scientifically on whether it works, because the research was funded in a slightly odd way, but it is one of those things that won't do any harm, is relatively inexpensive if you buy the Boots own branded stuff, and you will know within a fortnight if it is starting to help.

MrsMattie · 02/01/2009 15:02

Thanks for all replies. Really appreciated. I had to disappear to deal with DD last night - wasn't being rude!

foxinsocks - I bought How To Talk a while ago but never got round to reading it in full. Will have to dig it out!

BoffinMum - do you think so? (re: ADHD). I dread hearing this, as it is always at the back of my mind. I will definitely try the Omega 3 (had been meaning to try this, actually). I'm a bit nervous about having him 'diagnosed' with some sort of 'condition' (no offence to mums of children with ADHD). I just wonder if it will help him in the long run?

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