Really want to know if this is something more...

[MrsMattie]

...than 'normal' behaviour.

DS is 4 yrs old in Feb. In a nutshell, he is a pretty bright, articulate boy, has always been 'spirited', a major enthusiast / very over excitable. He struggled badly at his last nursery as he had a bad biting habit (this was between the ages of 3-3.5 yrs old) and simply wouldn't take instructions (wouldn't help tidy up, wouldn't join in some group activities etc). in the end we had to remove him from the nursery as he spent most of the time on the 'naughty corner' alone and it just seemed to defeat the whole purpose of going to nursery .

He started a new nursery in Sept and thankfully topped the biting, although he still has a tendency to be aggressive. He is extremely clumsy / rough / over enthsuiastic in his approach a lot of the time, which spills over into aggression if he is tired or having a bad day. His nursery teacher is very patient and kind, but describes him as a 'whirlwind' and 'extremely willful / not keen on authority' (tell us something we don't know).

I have always put DS's behaviour down to being a bright, boisterous, easily bored little boy and cracked jokes about needing to walk him daily like a little puppy to get all his energy out etc, but I am now starting to worry a bit about him. He seems absolutely incapable of walking through a room without knocking something over or knocking into someone. He cannot seem to play for a more than a few minutes with another child (or adult!) without somehow hurting them - usually accidentally, but sometimes on purpose. He also will not listen to a word that is said to any instruction/request unless you physically take hold of him, look him in the eye and talk to him very loudly . He is also extremely bossy / willful, which is very tiring for me being a SAHM and trying to keep my patience with him all day.

In fairness he is going through a bit of a bad patch lately, as he has a newborn sister whom he is extremely jealous of - but these traits of his have been fairly constant, really. The thing that worries me is watching him around almost all other children. He really stands out as this nutty little character, constantly falling over and clowning around and eventually causing some other kid to cry (and usually ending up in tears himself). We had several children / family friends over to visit over Xmas, and visited several others, and he was unable to contain his excitement in any way at all and each visit ended in some kind of bad behaviour or temper tantrum. He just seemed so terribly badly behaved compared to all the other children, and I came away feeling depressed.

I don't want to set my expectations too high for such a small boy, but I ams starting to see that he is a bit different to other children and I am unsure where to go from here. Terrified of lavelling him a 'problem child'

p.s. I've made it sound like he is awful. He isn't. The strange thing is, he is a real Jekyll & Hyde character. He can be such a wonderful, co-operative, sweet boy sometimes, but it tends to be only for very short periods and only when he is one-to-one with an adult.

MrsMattie, I am not a psychiatrist so would not feel comfortable diagnosing your son, especially over the internet (!) but I do think there have been some warning bells in your posts, and it is sensible and appropriate for me to advise you to seek a professional opinion.

I would not be too worried about labels and conditions - they come with gifts of help and support, and that is never a bad thing. Even if the psychiatrist finds no evidence of ADHD they will be able to give really useful advice on behaviour management which may cheer you all up a bit. You sound very worried at the moment.

There is also something called 'difficult temperament' that is less well researched and less clearly defined (especially if you Google it now - you will see what I mean). This is another example of a condition that you could possibly discuss with the psychiatrist. It might go some way to explaining some of the problems you are experiencing in the absence of an ADHD diagnosis or similar. The right professional will be able to guide you further.

Incidentally, we are very quick to label sometimes, and really what we might be talking about here is how to raise a 'non-standard child', albeit with ADHD/difficult temperament/whatever. These children can be the most interesting and worthwhile of all, so make sure you enjoy him!

Boffinmum ~ do you think so? I was thinking more along the lines of some kind of asd with the correcting speech etc. Again I am no expert and would definitely seek the help of the pros who can either rule out or help you further with your ds's behaviour good luck

PS Always bear in mind sometimes some aspects of ADHD can be confused with some aspects of Autistic Spectrum Disorders and vice versa. Some teachers can be a bit too quick to wade in with a pseudo-diagnosis on one side of this line or the other, but a proper diagnosis is complicated to achieve and needs the right medical professional, as does a 'diagnosis' of normality!! In other words, listen to the experts.

Blimey .... I could be reading my own mind hearing what you have to say about your ds. My ds is 5 and has had a really hard time at school. All of your son's traits, but amplified by the fact that he started in yr 1 this September where it's far more structured then nursery or even reception. He is a Summer baby.

His teacher called me in and gave it to me straight as far as she was concerned. "He's got ADHD" were her exact words. I almost fell on the floor. How was she qualified to medically diagnose my child with a mental health issue ? Well, she wasn't and after some heated conversations, dh and I agreed to have him observed. There was more damning news from the observation - words like 'working to own agenda, impulsive and inappropriate' were mentioned. We all agreed to give him 3 months with specific learning strategies in place.

Well, ADHD has not been mention since (5 months has passed) and he no longer needs to strategies any more as he is able to complete tasks alone. I don't know what to think really .... I fear we have an education system that likes to diagnose and label kids rather than tweak their curriculum to fit the odd shaped peg iyswim. My ds is a popular, happy, lively and healthy little man - yes, he can be in your face on occasions, but so can we all.

Meanwhile def to the Omega 3,6 & 9 (Eskimo Kids or EyeQ are great) and seriously help him with diet. You'd be amazed what has a load of rubbish in them eg: most breads and bacon have 2 preservatives that are really bad for children. Try looking at the Hyper Active Children's' website - it's been going for years and has some really good diet advise on there.

Good luck !!

xposts Blossomhill!!

Could be either - read some of the latest lit on this last week which reminded me of the dangers of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

I personally think half the problems young boys have in the classroom can be attributed to them starting formal education before the age of 7, unlike the rest of Europe.

However labels can be very useful for parents because it puts the onus on the school and Local Authority legally to provide the resources necessary to help such non-standard children.

i agree Boffinmum - I would never prevent my child receiving any extra help and will always be open to their suggestions and help. I really like my sons teacher and she is a very good teacher with lots of experience. She did apologise to us after for being "premature" with her opinions, but she obviously sees something we do not.

I also agree with the school starting age for formal education - it sucks! I put my oldest son into a private all boys school aged 8 as he wasn't getting anywhere fast. Within 6 months he was flying. We made huge sacrafices to keep him there, but it was worth it. He is a lovely 13 year old doing really well. In my heart, I do not think he would have blossomed in the same way as the mainstream did not suit him or engage him. i can see ny youngest son going in the same direction, which saddens me as i really want to support our education system but feel it has let them down iyswim

Or could be both-ADHD and ASD's often overlap. They are co-morbids. Anyhow, what is definitely needed is an assessment.

If you go to your GP and request an assessment mrsmattie at least you will get the help you need-and if it does turn out that there is no real problem, no harm will have been done.

MrsMattie, I empathise with your comments on Boffinmum's helpful posts. I feel exactly the same when I get comments on ASD about my son's behaviour.

What works really well for me is to accept help from people with expertise in ASD (usually mums on mumsnet!) - because there are clear similarities - whilst making an absolute stand against adopting the professionals' vocabulary in describing my son. This was fine when dealing with the paediatrician. She seemed perfectly capable of giving me advice without throwing scary vocabulary around. The diagnostic criteria for tonsillitus will be the same in 20 years' time as today. You can bet your bottom dollar that those for ADHD will be different, so a bit of polite scepticism is entirely appropriate. Do whatever helps you to turn those anxieties into action.

I think that professionals would rather work with a parent who follows through on their practical tips whilst disliking/politely declining/being honest about their dread of labels (now or even always) rather than one who searches out labels but forgets to take their practical advice if you see what I mean.

I bet other mums with kids with ADHD will be able to help you. All you need to accept is that there are similarities between him and a certain kind of ADHD and then you're motoring - you can make that all-important action plan .

Boys of his age have a testosterone surge. It could be that.

How's his hearing? Clear speech doesn't always exclude a hearing problem.

I wondered about ADHD/ADD too, BoffinMum, and also dyspraxia.

None of the above is a insoluble problem. But I think the likeliest scenario is this: he's a normal, boisterous, energetic, bouncing 4 year old boy. Your puppy analogy is quite correct.

I wouldn't worry. Agree with BoffinMum about young children and formal education.

Mrs M - personally I would keep away from ADHD - your instinct is right.

My view on this is probably best explained in 'Naughty Boys; Anti-Social Behaviour, ADHD and the role of culture' by Sammi Timimi ( He is a psychiatrist but is a Critical one !).

Quite simply Timimi does not believe ADHD is a valid medical diagnosis. Instead ADHD is a "cultural construct"; the result of speculative "biobabble".

Last year he wrote in a academic paper: "ADHD is a 'dumping ground' allowing all of us to avoid the messy business of understanding human relationships and institutions and their difficulties, and our common responsibility for nurturing and raising well behaved children."

May be controversial, but sod it !

dbc Just looked up book and Timimi - he sounds v. controversial, but brilliant. Will def read some more about his research and books.

The medication issue frightens the life out of me tbh. I think there is enough support in this country (outside schools that is) to have a child with ADHD not on medication.

Unfortunately, I get the opinion you would need to have an exceptional head teacher and staff to accept an ADHD diagnosed boy not medicated ..... Is this the real case ? what does anyone else think??

GivePeasaChance, just want to say how refreshing it is to hear this alternative view. I rarely see it debated on the special needs board. Perhaps because many parents of children who are a bit "different" feel forced into rejecting/shying away from the "special needs" board altogether as well.

I think that once a parent has accepted a diagnosis, particularly if she has found it helpful for her own family in terms of opening doors and relieving guilt, then it can be quite hard to listen to people who don't accept the label. Those who query the label are then labelled themselves as being "in denial". It's a bit like childbirth - hard to talk about what worked for you without making it sound as though it should work for others too.

My friend has a son who, were he described on here, would elicit many responses describing him as being "on the spectrum". She doesn't seek any diagnosis for him but describes him as being "a bit different" and has deferred his entry to school by a year. And she's a psychiatrist!

lingle ~ You do not just get a dx. A dx is given for conditions such as adhd and asd using very strict guidelines. Asd for example is given following lots of assessments and the child would have to have the triad of imapairments. The same as Adhd questionaires are filled out by school and home and then a dx is made/ruled out.
Asd and Adhd are very real conditions and if your child had diabetes for example would you not use that term to describe their condition??? The way I see it is what it is...

I may too have something to do with "the mind"! After lots of reading and researching and debating, I am of the view that the pathologising of these children is not for their benefit, only those of the professionals who work with them and society at large ( or to clarify further - those who hold the power base). Critical Psychology (which is the main arena for criticism of psychology and the DSM) is becoming more prevalent and makes more sense as we go along the track of being a society "lead by Psychology". For me, most of these 'disorders' are cultural not physical.

Books which sum up the arguments are "Putting Psychology in it's place" - Graham Richards

" Naming the Mind" Kurt Danziger.

I have a ds who at that age was use quite "lively" but nothing like my dd with Adhd. Big difference...

This is all great food for thought - thank you! Just going to read over a cuppa and digest. Will be back!

I have just read your oP mrsM and he sounds exactly like ds1 at the same age. He is 5 now and he is so much easier to manage.

I can't emphasise how much difference a year makes.

I think also there is something called a 'testosterone surge' at around four - not sure if urban myth or already mentioned - but it would explain a lot!

It's a frustration at being physically stronger but unable to coordinate oneself in the way one would want. I think...

I reckon he will meet all his long lost puppy friends at school and be just fine

Mummyofboys, there is great reluctance to prescribe medication for ADHD in the UK if it can be avoided. If the parents are clued up about diet, parenting skills, etc, this is rarely necessary as I understand it. So no need to panic. Few people here want to dope children unnecessarily just because they are a bit different. Unlike our American cousins.

Regarding labels, most psychiatrists and psychologists I have encountered are very sensible people whose main aim is to improve child and family life, so they will be less bothered about labels than you think. Often they will hold back from giving one. What they do have is bags of expertise, including with children considerably worse than your own. This is always comforting.

One way of thinking about all this is to frame it temporarily in terms of a kind of disability, with which it has parallels in the educational context. When doing this, you need to be aware that there are two models of disability in use: a medical model and a social model. What we are talking about here is using as an analogy the social model of disability, in which the problems your son is experiencing are as much if not mostly because of the environment he finds himself in, as opposed to one simply identified root organic or biological cause. Does that make sense?

Sorry yes Paperchase mentioned it below.

PS I am not saying your son is disabled, btw, and this is a very loaded term anyway.

PPS Remember how female-dominated classrooms and nurseries are when seeking to understand boys' behaviour. They are looking for compliant passivity much of the time, which is simply not where four year old boys are coming from.

MrsMattie I could have written your OP! My ds is 5 in May and so exactly like you describe. You have my particular sympathies for the family visiting scenario - you are not alone in dreading having to deal with your poorly behaved child in a crowd. BUT, he is now in reception and his wonderful teacher has taken the view of him that he is bright and eager to learn and she has helped him so much with the social skills. He is absolutely fine at school and I strongly believe that his more challenging behaviour is reserved for me, at home, because that is where he feels comfortable 'letting it out' and being himself. On the days when I am not frustrated to the nth degree with him I can see that this is a good thing (because if he couldn't let it out at all, where would it go?).

Anyway, I know you've already received lots of excellent advice from the ladies here, but I wanted to add a book recommendation ' Raising Your Spirited Child' by mary Sheedy. Lots of good tips but above all makes you appreciate the special person your son is.

I am in almost the same situation with my dd, aged 5. we have just moved to US, so she is the new girl at school. teachers looked at me when i said there may be something a little differrent about her - she is usually incredibly well behave (only child, no chance of getting away with anything), but at times seems so locked in her own world that you just can't get through. not a hearing problem, we've had that checked loads of times. spilling a drink was known as 'doing a xxx' in our village before we left the UK.

as a teacher, i had training on ADHD, and she so exactly fitted the description, particularly the hyperctive bit, that i just laughed. however, it also describes a very high proportion of children age 3 to 5, so you are unlikely to get a referral before the age of 5. we had begun discussions with our gp, but knowing that we were about to emigrate meant it wasn't worth referring. now dd has been in her new school about 5 weeks, and her new teacher has gone from being to ah, yes. there's nothing explicit or obvious, just that niggle that somehow you're not quite making that link & getting through!!

we are VERRY structured about giving instructions - ask twice, then start counting. often she suddenly 'wakes up' and asks what she should be doing. she also really struggles to sit still, and meal times, table work etc are very hard.

having said that, she is gradually getting better - there's no reason why she can't learn social mores, she just needs more explicit teaching than others.

and yes, i 'walk' her, like a dog, at least 3 hours every day in summer hols, but she still needs menatl stimulus to really wear her out.

Very interesting posts Boffinmum. Nice to hear another professional who understands the power of these loaded terms. They are not ever neutral! I wish my SALT understood this. She seems to like using them to reinforce her status and authority (grr). Whereas the paediatrician is confident enough not to need to use them at all.

Blossomhill, I don't say ADHD doesn't exist (sorry if I came across that way) but am interested to hear this view aired. My point is that this is not diabetes. You'll see above that I used tonsillitus as an example of a diagnosis that I would accept without question. "HFA" (where my SALT is pointing me) is not such a diagnosis.

If you take even a cursory historical tour of the diagnositic criteria for illnesses involving the mind, it's pretty obvious how contingent many of them are. "Madness Explained" is a good book on the psychoses, for example.